Your Thoughts On Desert Storm II: VOTE

Discussion in 'San Diego, CA' started by Xtant_Tyranus, Mar 18, 2003.

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  1. jawajames FF Pacific RSA President/Chapter Rep San Diego, CA

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 6
    the war also wreaks havoc on the TV schedule -- we were freaked that they might have canceled last night's Angel since the WB was running live newsfeeds before that.

    ok i'm not posting on this thread anymore. really this time.
  2. Padme_Anakin_Fan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2003
    star 2
    There's a war going on, and you're worried about you TV schedule. [face_plain] Maybe they can fit it into a time slot that fits you.
  3. Epicauthor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2002
    star 4
    I think we should send "Shock and Awe" to FOX if they pre-empt American Idol.


    [face_laugh]
  4. tk-7603 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2003
    star 3
    can you guys belive the crazyness in chicago? I mean come one, let these people drive home, and get the hell off the highway!
  5. ValueROCKR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 3
    im not saying leave Iraq alone... what im saying is id like more information released to help people feel at ease that we are doing the right thing....

    i dont think Iraq is the largest threat to our nation right now.... and if we make the mistake of going after a lesser threat first we may pay heavily for it.....

    plus other points to consider.... our military has just recently begun training for urban warfare... we are walking into territory wholly new to our troops... but the Iraqis have been doing if for a long time....

    our nation is no where near the production level it needs to be at to fight a sustained war....


    taken from the Annual message to the Congress, the Capitol, Washington, D. C.,
    January 6, 1941
    Leaders of industry and labor have responded to our summons. Goals of
    speed have been set. In some cases these goals are being reached ahead
    of time; in some cases we are on schedule; in other cases there are
    slight but not serious delays; and in some cases-and I am sorry to say
    very important cases-we are all concerned by the slowness of the
    accomplishment of our plans.

    The Army and Navy, however, have made substantial progress during the
    past year. Actual experience is improving and speeding up our methods of
    production with every passing day. And today's best is not good enough
    for tomorrow.

    I am not satisfied with the progress thus far made. The men in charge of
    the program represent the best in training, in ability, and in
    patriotism. They are not satisfied with the progress thus far made. None
    of us will be satisfied until the job is done.

    No matter whether the original goal was set too high or too low, our
    objective is quicker and better results.

    To give you two illustrations:

    We are behind schedule in turning out finished airplanes; we are working
    day and night to solve the innumerable problems and to catch up.

    We are already of schedule in building warships but we are working to
    get even further ahead of that schedule.

    To change a whole nation from a basis of peacetime production of
    implements of peace to a basis of wartime production of implements of
    war is no small task. And the greatest difficulty comes at the beginning
    of the program, when new tools, new plant facilities, new assembly
    lines, and new ship ways must first be constructed before the actual
    materiel begins to flow steadily and speedily from them.

    (Thanks for the Four Freedoms Speech very interesting points!)

    im not trying to twist that around, i just think its relevant to consider what was said then compared to today... when we a facing threats from many sides... i only meant to point out that moving from peacetime to war time production levels takes a lot longer than just putting troops in place...




    ive been selling night vision to people all month long because theyre only getting a couple pairs for the guys running point...

    we had a couple come into day looking for googles for their grandson... hes being shipped out to Iraq and was told to get googles to protect his eyes from the sand storms, that hed have to buy his own because the base ran out....

    i talk to guys going out on almost a daily basis, and it troubles me to think we may be doing this too fast..... Saddam has had 12 years to plan this out.... we made the mistake the first time of not finsihing the job.... but now we are stuck between that mistake and N Korea and terrorist factions... and not to mention China is pissed off at our actions now....

    so far this has been pretty easy for us.... my friend brought up this point that i thought was interesting.... what if we get so far into Iraq and Saddam has left already but has rigged half the cities to blow? hes mentioned the inferno several times... and theres talk that he may break open dams and flood our troops out....

    Saddam has had 12 long years to plan this out....

    and yesterday while our troops sat on the border waiting for the go ahead from the President a plane crashed right on the bord
  6. AnakinWisler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 4
    what if we get so far into Iraq and Saddam has left already but has rigged half the cities to blow?

    ... and theres talk that he may break open dams and flood our troops out....


    You're playing your redundant "what if" games again. [face_plain] Fighting ANY war means taking risks.

    Saddam has had 12 long years to plan this out....

    So have we!
  7. ValueROCKR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 3
    thats not a what if game dude. thats something my friend said and i thought was interesting considering Saddam saying that there will be an inferno... its interesting to consider and if we dont we could lose a good portion of our forces there to such an attack
  8. AnakinWisler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 4
    Saddam is an insane "man" how has been lying so much, that he now actually believes his own lies.
  9. ValueROCKR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 3
    we have had twelve years and most of them were with Clinton, the man who had Bin Laden delivered to him like three times and declined to take action so i have trouble believing we have been planning this as much as Saddam has.... but we could have done so, i find some of the new leaks comforting like the "E Bomb"

    Consider Tesla, he offered a working death ray to the government in the 1940's.... it could reach targets up to 200 miles away and ignite fuels and exlosives... the beam was like a 16th of an inch wide....
  10. ValueROCKR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 3
    Saddam is an insane "man" how has been lying so much, that he now actually believes his own lies.

    yeah thats true, but he is crazy enough to kill his own people on that scale to get at us i believe
  11. AnakinWisler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 4
    .... but now we are stuck between that mistake and N Korea and terrorist factions... and not to mention China is pissed off at our actions now....


    [face_shocked] I agree with you there. ;) But if N. Korea or China were to "intervene" it would be most devastating to their countries.
  12. AnakinWisler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 4
    he is crazy enough to kill his own people on that scale to get at us i believe

    Then that should be more than enough reason to go to war.
  13. ValueROCKR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 3
    i agree with that but i wish we could be a little more prepared, but its a catch 22... these people wont wait for UN approval to attack us... it sucks all around...
  14. AnakinWisler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 4
    these people wont wait for UN approval to attack us... it sucks all around...

    Well, yeah...that's because they're a bunch of Commie...um I can't say that word without getting banned. ;)
  15. Arma_Geda-Mandalore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2003
    star 3
    I'm truly sad that you took a quote from a stirring speech made at the dawn of a time when our country was united in defeating a common enemy of the world, cut portions out of it, and posted what little bit, out of context, served your purposes.

    It seems that all the arguments against this offensive on this board so far have been based on supposition and hastily mentioned theories. The section in favor has cited numerous facts and figures that have been readily poo-pooed (woopdeedoo)by those who would disagree. Clearly, it has been simply a debate of those who see, feel, hear, and think with their hearts, over those who are willing to digest information and base logical decisions on fact and tangible evidence.

    There have been repeated attacks against President Bush, however, our elected officials have unanimously (almost, one was out due to illness) backed his actions on this very day. Name one time when our nation's elected representatives were unilaterally and unanimously in favor of a President's actions. Any of the dissenters are welcome to post facts on this here. They all seem to have a firm grasp of our nation's history (cough, cough). Those who derided the President had much to say against "Bush and Co.", but now it seems that those who you presumably voted for are also part of the team. You all DID vote didn't you? The numbers suggest you didn't, as voter turnout is usually low. Your vote pays for, free of charge, your right to complain.

    We have now lost servicemen in this war. I defy those who claim to "support our troops" in their rationalistic double-standard way of clearing themselves of guilt, to write a personal letter to the mother's of each one of those heroes stating something of this nature; " Dear ______, I am sorry to have learned of your loss. It is a great tragedy. Although I supported your son in my own personal way, I was against everything he stood and died for as a combatant in this war."

    Any takers? Who of you have the temerity or audacity even, to say to those mothers what you have little trouble saying here? Speak up.

    You have all muddled facts in your favor, easily written off concrete evidence, and gone against every member of your elected representation. You had the cojones to post here, put those cojones in an envelope with those words you've spoken to a dead boy's mother. How her loss came as a reult of some needless business arrangement. Lick that envelope, and then, to bronze those cojones, put your return address on that envelope. Exercise your right to have an opinion as you have all been so vehement in espousing here. Tell those mothers what you have all told us. Don't worry about how your words may hurt her, you didn't seem to care about them hurting fellow board members or veterans.

    Perhaps I have once again "invaded" YOUR board, with my statements. Somehow, I was able to find the secret password that prevents this from being a public forum.
  16. AnakinWisler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 4
    You present some very good facts, Arma_Geda-Mandalore. :)

    And this is a PUBLIC boards, so you can't "invade" it.
  17. ValueROCKR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 3
    dude i dont see how i twisted it around... and im sorry if i did, at this point i really dont understand where your coming from.... and i apoligize... i thanked you for sharing that speech because it changed my mind on a few things and helped me understand others... i dont get why your offended, my point is we arent up to the level we need to be at and this is a precarious situation.... im all for defending our country and its interests, most of you misunderstand me thinking im against war period, im not and maybe im not explaining my opinion as clearly as possible.... its hard to make a point when your being attacked by every person here....


    EDIT i do see what you mean after re-reading my post... i didnt mean for it to come off like that.... also yes i did make a stupid mistake over WW2, and i knew it before being told i was wrong, i didnt edit it because i can admit when im wrong and felt editing it would be dishonest...
  18. ValueROCKR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 3
    im not trying to twist that around, i just think its relevant to consider what was said then compared to today... when we are facing threats from many sides... i only meant to point out that moving from peacetime to war time production levels takes a lot longer than just putting troops in place... i didnt mean to twist it around to prove my current point about our production levels of today.... i thought that most interested parties would have read it and realized it was written some time ago... i neglected to put the date in for that reason and im sorry.... i was not trying to twist it around but to make a comparison....
  19. Arma_Geda-Mandalore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2003
    star 3
    Not every person, man. You have compatriots who seem to favor the smash and grab guerilla technique of debating. You just seem to be the only one willing to stand here in the ring. I sympathize with you for that.

    We spoke last night by pm, and I did think you had perhaps re-evaluated your thoughts. By your recent posts, it seems you may have to a small degree. Nevertheless, your arguments have been based on "my friend's" supposition, conjecture, theory, and somewhat comic-book-inspired "what if" scenarios. Your arguments, to ring true, should state more than "Korea is pointing his boney finger at me and I'm nervous", or "Everybody's gonna be pissed". I would encourage you to cite occurences that uphold your arguments why Saddam is of no threat to us or any other free nation. Show me your CIA, or any other agency's, both friend or foe, reports on the matter. Not some Berkeley based brownstone with a basement greenhouse and "really huge lights down there".

    Try to stay away from references to your buddy's ideas. Especially when some would expect the next few phrases to include the words "dude", "what if", "from out of the sky", "kryptonite", or any other far-fetched theories.

    I will try to be frank and serious here; try to ask yourself why so many people are so in favor of this? The dissenters are in the vast minority. Then ask yourself why so many military personnel, of a completely volunteer system, would be willing to do what they are doing? Are they wrong? Do they have the right to disobey if they feel their orders are against their personal beliefs or human law?

    Please understand that I only hope those who are less informed can be better informed here. I don't seek to personally insult anyone any more than to shock the truth into them. At least the truth as is supported by facts.

    I encourage you to give me all the facts you can in order to support your stance. Your confusion is a sign that you may be accepting ideas that had never occured to you before. Take your time.
  20. Sith_241 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    I think we should get the war over with quickly as possible bacause im worried we might get gut-punched by someone who really hates us. I suppose now that war has come, i cant oppose it, because our troops are over there. Dont get me wrong, im not opposed to the war, i think Saddam needs to be taken out, i just think we could have done a little bit more diplomatically before hand, not soo much with regards to Iraq, but with other countries, i dont like the way we have alienated other countries from ourselves. if we piss too many people off at us we wont have whole lot of support in the future.
    But anyway, now that were in there, lets kick saddam and get the troopes home!
  21. Arma_Geda-Mandalore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2003
    star 3
    Sith, you bring up an interesting point. Of the countries against our current offensive stance, a very common sentiment among them for staying out was fear of retribution. They threw their hands up and washed them of the whole idea.
    Strange how one of the most vocal of these nations has only today discovered one of the deadliest of biological weapons hidden in a locker in one of their major train stations of that nation's capitol.
    These idealistic countries will sadly find that their inaction will only bring disdain from this enemy. Not respect.
  22. Sith_241 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    i just meant that maybe nother country like N. Korea or some other middle easatern country might take advntage of us being occupupied with Iraq. Hopefully, they are not stupid enough to attack us.
  23. Arma_Geda-Mandalore Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2003
    star 3
    North Korea has been mentioned many times here.

    For those who don't, or won't admit to, know, our country is still engaged in the war(and it WAS a war, not a "conflict". Ask a veteran of Chosin) that was fought there, by UN forces, in the early 1950s. No surrender or other official end has ever been resolved for that war. Our two nations are only engaged in a cease-fire action. Therefore, we have a fairly large and powerful contingent of service personnel on constant watch of that country's border. Oftentimes, the two opposing sentries can see each other's faces over the DMZ.

    Because of this, it is highly unlikely that a "gut-punch" could be attempted by North Korea. They have one gimonstrous enemy force just a few paces away from their border to prevent that very thing from happening.
  24. Darth_Vegeta Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    Ok, my first major problem with this war has finally arisen. Why do we continue to use those *expletive deleted* double-rotor helicopters? As if we haven't had enough problems with them already in practice flights, now one of them is the cause of the first American and British casualties of this war. I don't understand why we continue to use Vietnam-era helicopters when our other technology is so much more advanced? As if we can't spend the money to upgrade our technology...this is exactly what I was referring to before, soldiers losing their lives in POINTLESS SITUATIONS!!! This is why I was suspicious of war. And lo and behold...look what happened.

    Please pray for the souls of these soldiers and their families. [face_solemn]

    Edit: The thing crashed in Kuwait...these soldiers didn't even have the chance to accomplish their mission...
    Luis, if you get a chance to read this, bro, we're praying for you.
  25. ValueROCKR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 3
    ok

    N Korea used the threat of nuclear war in 1994 to extort aid food and oil from us and Clinton let him do it.... but at that time Korea had no real ability to wage that war....

    N Korea has again pulled this card on us after pulling out of the Non Proliferation Treaty and once again threatens nuclear war.
    and again we give them aid... Bush calls this a diplomatic matter... only this time they really do have the ability to do so

    Kim demands things of our nation at gun point and we bend over backwards to meet his demands... meanwhile rushing off to fight a war with a country who couldnt even hit Isreal with out moving its missles into place.... thats not to say Saddam hasnt moved sleepers into strategic positions here in the US though. but Iraq is not getting any money out of us. It would be cheaper to go to war with N Korea as we wouldnt be sending aid anymore and we wouldnt have to occupy that area as long as we already know S Korea would step in for regime change....

    maybe the US knows that while it would be cheaper and make a greater difference to disarm N Korea that Iraq is a possibly safer and less bloody war to win.... but why go the easy route to win a war in Iraq while we leave a larger problem in Korea? since when has Iraq ever had the power to demand anything of us? that fact alone seems to speak to me that N Korea plays a bigger part in the current scheme of things....

    Iraq has had a rocky past with the UN but has never gone so far as to extort goods or aid from another country as N Korea is doing and has done... (to my knowledge)

    if anything the UN should deal with Iraq not us but its clear that they seem to be unable to move together maybe a lesson to countries that have vested interest in Iraq... it may be a bad idea to depend on a mad man... a lesson we learned 12 years ago....


    These North Korean forces are "getting better, day to day, year to year," Army Gen. Thomas A. Schwartz told reporters during an interview in Seoul in March 2000. "They've been improving themselves. They've been modernizing and they've been exercising."


    so why continue giving them aid? they have reopened reactors and claimed fuel rods that the UN sealed...

    China Russia and Japan are all pressuring N Korea to disarm and quiet down... meanwhile no one is willing to comment on whether or not N Korea has stepped up its production to take advantage of our focus on Iraq.... which i still maintain could be a dangerous mistake....

    im not against war by any means, but choosing Iraq first doesnt seem a wise step to me.... it puts us right in the middle of a big storm.... France Germany Russia and Chinas discord over our actions, Iran, Iraq and N Korea all at once....

    i just think a war with N Korea would have offered less of a debacle on the world stage and offered larger results for homeland security





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