"You're asking me to be rational", "Women and children too", "Im sorry"

Despite the hastiness of Anakin's actions throughout AOTC, I think the above quotes reiterates Anakin knowledge that he IS fallible. Do people agree with this assessment?

Of course. I never viewed him as an arrogant brat, because he never was. I mean, there was a bit of arrogance in him, but not as much as some fans would have you believe.
In AOTC, he went through a very troublesome peroid, but he never ceased to recognize his human faults.

"I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this!"

^ That, to me, explains what it's all about. He desperately wants to be a Jedi and he tries so hard, but he just can't stop being human. Makes you feel sorry for him, especially considering the fact that if he didn't try so hard, he might very well be more successful. Noone ever tells him that, though.



Anakin knows
/LM

Exactly; it's very much like the Buddha - which we all know the Jedi is sort of derived from. Buddhism isn't something you should try to attain or grab hold of - once you do that, it becomes something that could be lost, that's the exact opposite of what it's all about.

The ultimate representation of this is Luke in the OT - where he throws away his Jedi weapon, because the lightsaber doesn't make him a Jedi. The ability to wield the force doesn't make him a Jedi; having beaten a Sith Lord doesn't make him a Jedi - he realizes that then & there.

The thing with Anakin is that instead of embracing himself as he is; he despises himself. He never realizes that his flaws are shared by everyone in the universe - and instead he takes them personal. He recognizes that he is infallible; but he has no idea what to do with that realization. Which is exactly where the frustration kicks in. And that's taken advantage of by the Palp-man; whereas we have the Jedi letting go of everything and teaching compassion over possession. Palpatine's telling him he will/should overcome these same Jedi teachings; that he'll somehow "master" them more than the other Jedi.

In AotC we get to the point that Anakin accepts what Palpatine's been telling him - he promises his dead mother and Padme (but really, he's promising himself) that he's going to become more powerful then any Jedi, he's going to overcome death itself. Padme even tries steering him off that path; but she has what, 2 weeks with him vs. 10 years of Palpatine's whispers, so it's futile. He's set himself on a unnatural path; and it'll drive him insane.

- O_F

This trend continues well into Revenge of the Sith, too:

"I want more! And I know I shouldn't."

Plus his subsequent crying on Mustafar.

Anakin inwardly knows right from wrong but literally cannot help himself. Although there are times in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith where he seems overwhelmed and confused, these are fleeting. As much, for example, as he may feel he's being pulled from pillar to post by the Jedi and Palpatine in Episode III, it's clear that he knows where his loyalties - or rather, where his moral obligations - really lie. Just watch him in the opera scene. He actively defends the Jedi to Palpatine causing the Sith Lord to change tactic; Palpatine literally hits a brick wall and has to go in another direction. I actually thought that, as good as Ian McDiamid was, Hayden Christensen did excellent work here. You get the distinct sense that Anakin implicitly knows he's entertaining the lies of a Sith Lord but that the potential for them to be true - owed to the way Palpatine tells them - is too good to pass up. Let me run that one by you again: I think that Anakin KNOWS Palpatine is the Sith Lord at this point; he just tells that side of him to hush-up because of his emotional and needy nature.

Anakin is human and He's a Jedi. He knows what he's doing is wrong, but remember Palpataine tells him to just trust in his feelings and he will be the most powerful Jedi ever.

He formed attachment,which for a Jedi is deadly because it blinds their judgement. He's tempted to act upon his feelings,even though they are wrong. He still does it,however,because he just can't help himself even though he knows its bad.

I agree with Cryogenic. Those are excellent points relating to ROTS and Anakin's demeanor. In ROTS Anakin gets pulled in different directions where I actually feel sorry for him. He's got a point when he says "Don't ask me to do this" (although misdirected). Its really tearing him apart, yet defends the Jedi at the Opera scene. Palpatine then takes (as he always does) another avenue - to catch Anakin at his most vulnerable.

I don't believe that Anakin really knows the difference between right and wrong because if he had, he wouldn't have massacred the entire Tusken village, killed a defenseless(and handless) Dooku, believe a single word PalpSidious is telling him, nor would he agree to betray and kill the entire Jedi Order along with killing the Seperatists as well. In fact, Anakin doesn't understand either what is right or what is wrong and he never will until Luke shows it to him in ROTJ and lastly, Anakin does NOT know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord during the Opera scene even when he's telling Sith stories because A)Anakin would've told the Council much earlier instead of waiting till Palps confesses to him and B) it is indicated earlier in the film that the Sith have become public knowledge when Obi-wan told Palps that "killing Sith Lords is their specialty" so there's no reason at that for Anakin to suspect that Palpatine is a Sith Lord.

You mean you don't want to believe. Who are you to judge Anakin's actions? You weren't there, you didn't go through what he went through. Most normal human beings would've done what he did against the tuskens and against Dooku, because most normal human beings want revenge when someone hurts them.
I'm not condoning his actions, because I think revenge is pointless, but I understand his actions completely. He's a normal human being whom the Jedi have tried to train as one of them. It didn't work out as well as they hoped, though, because they are not normal human beings.



Anakin - he is you and me
/LM

I wouldn't say the Jedi aren't normal human beings; if that's the case, then what does that make Darth Vader? Is he "normal"? Anakin was a "normal" kid; but he certainly wasn't a "normal" grown man. I don't even really know what "normal" is. I'd say the difference isn't in their characters; it's in their lives. The Jedi don't lead average "normal" lives; and on earth, we really don't have any likeness to them. Whereas we do with Anakins life; that of a man who's frustrated with balancing his duty with his personal life. For the other Jedi; their duty IS their personal life.

Is it "normal" to TAKE revenge nowadays? I mean, the world is certainly a messed up place - but if such a thing would be "normal" then it'd be anarchy and chaos all over. And it's not that bad yet. Anakin was normal in AotC when he made a horrible mistake and felt guilt and remorse about it; but he transcended being "normal" when he started making the same mistakes all over again - and certainly when he became Darth Vader.

- O_F

I am, of course, talking about the Jedi way of life. It's not normal, as in "It's not the norm for regular people".
Is it normal to take revenge nowadays? Certainly it is! If you happen to insult someone, for instance, you will, in most cases, get an insult thrown back at you, or some other sort of vengeance. Depends on who it is that you happen to insult. Some would punch you in the face without blinking.
It's a common human defense mechanism, that's all I'm saying.



Revenge - it's pointless
/LM

But the fact that it's common doesn't make it "normal"

- O_F

Well, it actually does. "Normal" comes from "norm", which is, essentially, "what is common".
Maybe you mean normal as in "sane", "morally correct", "clever" etc, in which case you are right - "common" doesn't necessarily equal "normal".
In the true meaning of the word, though, it does.



Anakin's personality is highly normal
/LM

I think Anakin is in tune with what he's feeling, he's just confused at how to deal with it. He tells Padme in ROTS, "I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more, and I know I shouldn't."

n.
Something normal; the standard: scored close to the normal.
The usual or expected state, form, amount, or degree.

Correspondence to a norm.
An average.
Mathematics. A perpendicular, especially a perpendicular to a line tangent to a plane curve or to a plane tangent to a space curve.

"Taking revenge" isn't a 'standard' that anyone adheres to; it's not controlling your actions and emotional state. If anything; it's a severe abnormality to take revenge, because it lowers a person to a level that's beneath them had they not done it.

I'm not saying AotC-Anakin isn't normal; i'm saying that 'taking revenge' isn't normal.

Exactly; his flaws confuse him. And in that confusion Palpatine's words suddenly sound a whole lot better and better because they pave a way for him to somehow "defeat" these flaws.

- O_F

I never viewed him as an arrogant brat, because he never was.

Doesn't both Lucas and the character Obi-Wan say that he is?

You give me a Lucas/Obi-Wan quote that describes Anakin as a brat and I'll give you a brand new Porsche.

Taking revenge is a standard. It doesn't matter what we think of it, because it's something that most, if not all, humans do. Take a look at society: If someone commits a crime, the rest of the society takes revenge by punishing that person. It's not a system that I agree with, but it's there.



Anakin's decisions are normal
/LM

I sympathize very much with Anakin. He had huge emotional issues and the Jedi couldn`t give him the help he needed with that and Palpatine surely wouldn`t. Padme might have, but had too little time and was even a bit too close to him to really help him.

While I`d agree he went way too far in his revenge for his mother and later his quest to save Padme, I understand the underlying emotions that motivated him. And even he showed signs that he knew he did wrong ("I`m a Jedi. I know I`m better than this" and crying on Mustafar), but just couldn`t stop himself. He simply couldn`t overcome his anger and fear.
It´s not uncommon that you can analyze a problem you have but still can`t do much about it.

As for revenge, I believe it is a natural feeling for most people. When someone hurts me, I want to hurt them right back. Now, if I act on that impulse and on what level is something else entirely.

rhonderoo posted on 10/28/05 10:24am/>

Very nicely said. Anakin knows when he does right and when he does wrong. Without a doubt he feels badly for when he does wrong, even in the midst his strong hunger for power in Revenge of the Sith, he wasn't even slightly blinded from knowing he was doing wrong. In the end, he just wasn't strong enough to handle everything in the right way. The same with real life. Some are stronger than others./>/>

This is why in the Original Trilogy there is little to believe that Anakin could be turned to the light side, although he is more machine than human...

Not everyone wants revenge or do what Anakin did, not even Luke.

Luke has suffered much worse than his father did but we don't see him slaughtering villages full of innocent people, kill a defenseless opponent after they are defeated, nor did he believe a single word that came out of Sidious' mouth.

It's all about self-control and Luke had it while Anakin did not.

Whatever makes you sleep better at night....



Some people have a twisted view on certain movies
/LM

I agree with most of your post; except for the Luke/Sidious part.

"Use your anger. Take your weapon and strike me down with all of your hatred!"
*Luke proceeds to take his weapon and tries to strike down Sidious*

"Sister, so you have a twin-sister. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me, now his failure is complete. If you will not be turned - then perhaps, she will-"
"-NEVERRRR"
*Luke proceeds to swing wildly at Vader*

Luke fell for the same Sith traps as Anakin; he used his anger and hatred in the same ways Anakin did all those years ago. The difference is that Luke learns from his mistakes - whereas Anakin just keeps on making them all over again from Tuskens to Dooku to Mace etc etc. Of course he has more self-control then his father, but he had to actually mess up himself in order to apply that self-control. Even Obi-Wan had to get knocked down a pit in order to calm himself and fight Maul the way he's supposed to, that's when he became a Jedi Knight.

- O_F

I agree that Luke, eventually, made the better choices when he was faced with the Dark Side dilemma. And he was a calmer, more forgiving person than his Dad.
But he had the extra motivation of having his father being like pretty much a big flashing neon sign that said: "That way lies mysery." He was already more wary of the Dark Side thanks to Anakin`s example.
In ROTJ he sees the similarity of their mechanical hands and that he was very close to following in his father`s footsteps. So he pulled back.
Anakin didn`t have all that.

True... but he did have that horrible face of Sidious that he bowed down in front of. If that isn't an indication that the Dark Side is a bad thing and will lead you to ruin, then nothing is.

Well maybe Anakin didn`t have his contacts in and couldn`t see all that well.