"You're referring to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force..."

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Master_Starwalker, Dec 17, 2008.

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  1. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    [image=http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsJ/8591-23933.gif]

    "You're referring to the prophesy of the one who will bring balance to the Force...you believe it's this boy??" - Mace Windu

    This line gets referred to a lot in criticisms of the Jedi, but the reasoning behind Mace's disbelief is rarely discussed. The consensus seems to be that it's simply a demonstration of Mace's arrogance. However, others think it's a cryptic statement referring to something only Windu and Yoda are aware of.

    We know that Ki-Adi and Mace both believed that the Sith were destroyed a millenia ago. However, how is this possible if the Chosen One had never appeared? The only explanations that come to mind are that A.) It had become the Jedi equivalent of Apocrypha or B.) Mace believed that it had already come to pass.

    I'm not entirely sure how workable the latter is, but I like the idea of it as a concept. It would explain why Mace is so quick to doubt in TPM, yet has absolute faith in Anakin once he's sure that Skywalker is the Chosen One, but returns to doubting in RotS because he comes to the conclusion that Skywalker simply couldn't be their foretold savior (and if one wants to tie in arrogance, perhaps Mace starts to think that he's the Chosen One?) His conviction that the prophecy is true would make him balk at the idea that the Sith weren't extinct, but once he's convinced his faith in the prophecy would remain, only to be shaken in RotS when Anakin is effectively a failure as a Jedi in his eyes as there's no way the Chosen One could be such a flawed Jedi.
  2. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    The main reason for Mace's disbelief is because the Chosen One isn't a foretold savior but someone that will restore balance to the force by destroying the Sith. Since he believes the Sith to have been destroyed a 1,000 years before he naturally wonders how this boy could be the Chosen One.
  3. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    They just felt the 'chosen one' was going to be the epitome of Jediness - which Anakin clearly was not. But he was the most powerful which should have clued them in. They forgot the #1 rule of heroes: they have the capacityto get the job done, but that does not mean that they are always living up to that capacity nor that they will be able to until the time is right. Name a hero, we can tell the same story again and again...
  4. Jedi Gunny Yahtzee Host

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    I agree with this; nowhere was it ever said that the "Chosen One" was going to be a savior for the Jedi; just one who would bring balance to The Force. If the Sith have supposedly been extinct for a millenia, then Mace would wonder if Anakin is the Chosen One because of his unnatural abilities.
  5. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Foretold savior was probably a bad choice of words on my part.

    Right, but destroying the Sith is what the Chosen One was foretold to do to bring the Force back into balance.
  6. Jedi Gunny Yahtzee Host

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    But that was after he had brought balance to the Force the first time, sothe prophecy can go both ways (that Anakin brought balance by "destroying" the Jedi and the Sith).
  7. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    star 6
    Destroying the Jedi didn't bring balance. That's just fanon stemming from the misconception that balance is determined by the number of Jedi and Sith.



    "Which brings us to films 4, 5 and 6, where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
    --George Lucas

    I think it is obvious that Qui-Gon was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrfice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor.
    - George Lucas from CUT interview 09/07/99?

    "It really has to do with learning," Lucas says(regarding the end of Anakin's story). "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son." - George Lucas
  8. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Anakin brought balance by destroying the Sith; the Jedi just happened to get in his way while he was doing that. :p
  9. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    This an astute observation! ALL of the Jedi, including Qui-Gon, expected that the Chosen One had to be a Jedi. The arrogance of the Jedi order and their determination to train him as a Jedi (because they are certain he must be a Jedi before he can become the Chosen One) sets Anakin's path in motion.

    No one can say for certain whether Anakin would or would not have become the Chosen One and destroyed the Sith had he been left to his own fate with Shmi. The ways of the force are indeed mysterious. If Sidious or Maul or Dooku eventually came across and trained him, Anakin still may have eventually destroyed the Sith, since he knew what good was, what love was from Shmi.

    As for the failings of heroes that xx_Anakin_xx addresses, that adds to their allure. We identify with them not because they are perfect, but because they fail just like us.

    Joseph Campbell, in "Hero With a Thousand Faces," lays out the hero's journey for us. In comparing all mythological heroes from cultures around the world, Campbell notes that almost every great hero seems to fall, experiencing the bitter darkness of failure before rising up to achieve their greatest deed.

    In the act of accomplishing their greatest deed they hero almost always dies, saving his clan/culture/race but redeemed by his noble act.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    IIRC Obi-Wan stated that the prophecy did not say the Chosen One had to be a Jedi.
  11. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
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    You're right.

    From the RotS novel:

    He followed her respectfully. "Anakin is under a great deal of
    pressure. He carries tremendous responsibilities for a man so young; when I
    was his age I still had some years to go as a Padawan. He is-changing.
    Quickly. And I have some anxiety about what he is changing into. It would be
    a ... very great mistake . . . were he to leave the Jedi Order."
    She blinked as though he'd slapped her. "Why-that seems . . . unlikely,
    doesn't it? What about this prophecy the Jedi put so much faith in? Isn't he
    the chosen one?"
    "Very probably. But I have scanned this prophecy; it says only that a
    chosen one will be born and bring balance to the Force; nowhere does it say
    he has to be a Jedi."
    She blinked harder, fighting down a surge of desperate hope that left
    her breathless. "He doesn't have to-?"
    "My Master, Qui-Gon Jinn, believed that it was the will of the Force
    that Anakin should be trained as a Jedi-and we all have a certain, oh, I
    suppose you could call it a Jedi-centric bias. It is a Jedi prophecy, after
    all."
  12. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4

    That could work, especially since he's so quick to jump the gun and kill Palpataine.
  13. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    I think that's the strongest part of the theory.
  14. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    Thinking about it now, I'm pretty sure Mace was somewhat jealous of Anakin. He's foretold to destroy the Sith, something Mace has trained himself especially to do. By crafting Vapaad, and becomming on of the strongest and most aggressive Jedi in the order, he's pretty much being told that all his work and training is futile, because Anakin is the only one who can do it.

    Which would piss me off too, seeing as Anakin is like 30 years younger, impulsive and immature during most of the PT. To have it implied to you that some spoilt self entilted n00b owns you, is kinda harsh.
  15. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Given that Mace didn't believe that the Sith had returned in TPM, I really, really doubt he's spent his life preparing himself to defeat them.
  16. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    Yeah he thought they were extinct, but at the same time he created Vapaad to perfectly counter a Sith's fighting style. I think his disbelief of the Sith returning is more so denial and also the things he's been taught as a Jedi for the last few decades. A Jedi is always prepared, even though they knew the Sith to be gone they must've known it was only inevitable till a Jedi strayed or a Sith follower emerged.
  17. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 29, 2000
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    Um, no. He created Vaapad specifically to deal with his own inner darkness. It's got nothing to do with the Sith.

    "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light."
    ?Mace Windu to Obi-Wan Kenobi, ROTS novel.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII:_Juyo_/_Vaapad
  18. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    And the by-product of their interference? He wiped them out too...

    :p
  19. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
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    ^^^

    . . . which leads one to wonder how Anakin might have gone about destroying the Sith had he not become a Jedi!

    Back on topic, perhaps Mace was at odds with young Anakin because he sensed familiar tendencies in him.

    As I recall from the (non-canon) EU, Mace's people were all force sensitives. But not being trained as Jedi, their emotions often got the better of them, eventually leading to brutal, violent and protracted civil warfare. Mace (in the EU) even participated in this war as a Jedi to end the fighting, experiencing first hand elements of the dark side.

    This EU background would help to explain Mace's reactions to Anakin throughout the PT, and also his split-second decision to kill Palpatine instead of arresting him as originally intended. Perhaps, just perhaps, he saw an evil in Palpatine that exceeded by orders of magnitude that experienced on his home planet during its bloodly, painful civil war.

  20. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
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    I think this flies in the face of what's been said on film. No disrespect intended Sublime. How could Mace have "destroying the Sith" as his motivating factor for creating Vaapad when the Jedi Council scoffed at the mention of the Sith. Mace himself even contradicted what is being suggested here. Didn't he say the Jedi would be the ones to know if the Sith came back? Mundi said they'd been extinct for a millinia.

    I'm not trying to pick an argument, I'm trying to rationalize this... certain POV and reconcile it with the films. I am unable so far...

    EDIT 1:
    I wholly agree that there was animosity between Anakin and Mace. Perhaps Mace had such a disdain for Dooku, that he held it against Qui Gon. Kenobi killed a Sith Lord so that makes him and Mace chums... and maybe Anakin reminded Mace of Jinn and Dooku somewhat. I'm totally grasping at straws here, but they seem more... inline than direct jealousy over being called the Chosen One. AMce was arrogant, but I gotta throw him a rancor bone and say he wasn't THAT arrogant.

    Sorry if my typing sucks, I can't read the script as I'm using my BIG screeb for amonitor while the smaller one gets it's annual service. I adjusted the setting but these text boxes aren't affected by them. Its only after I post that I can actually read it from where I'm sitting. And no, I'm not blind either.:p

    EDIT 2; Sorry i missed the posts where you guys alraedy squashed the Mace trained for Sith purposes. I guess I am blind...
  21. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I don't think Mace disliked Anakin at all until well into the Clone Wars, honestly. We found out in LoE that he was one of the Masters to vote for Anakin in the first round, and in the second, voted for Obi-Wan to train him. In AOTC he's really got nothing all that negative to say about him-he even praises his skills to Obi-Wan.

    IMO, the distrust began when Anakin killed Dooku. In the ROTS novel Mace is all OMG AWESOME!! when he initially finds out that Anakin killed Dooku; then he asks for specifics, and Anakin is obviously hiding something (from Mace's POV) and lets Palpatine speak for him. IMO, that's where the distrust began.
  22. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Good point...
    I had forgotten about that little exchange.
  23. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 29, 2000
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    Yep. It's even possible that Mace saw abit of himself in Anakin; the similarities are obviously more than just window dressing. Mace has difficulty dealing with his inner darkness (were we ever told exactly what that was-what it was that made him like that?) and he also held a secret love in the form of the Republic. Not that Mace knew about Padme, but the similiarities are interesting.
  24. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    Because Mace is black. Think about it. The only black Jedi on the council and he's going to let some blond haired blue eyed caucasian kid upstage him?

    I'm just kidding here...
  25. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    I could see it. Of course, Mace's decision to kill Palpatine still doesn't make sense if he believes Anakin is the Chosen One circa the attempted arrest. If he still buys into it, no one can destroy Palpatine except for the Chosen One, yet Mace leaves Skywalker in the Temple.
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