Yuuzhan Vong getting incredibly old

Discussion in 'Literature' started by neimoidian_85, Aug 7, 2001.

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  1. Entil`Zha Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 4
    Oh yeah, Shimrra brought a new sense to the Yuuzhan Vong in Rebirth


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    Looks like a Fifth Column is forming within the Vong, formed by the slaves and Shamed Ones.. takes you back to the old days when the slaves in ancient Rome turned to Catholism to try to help them. Just an historic ressemblance, that's all!
  2. Mecca-Don Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2001
    star 2
    Let's just say I disagree with a couple of the previous posts.

    For example, one forum user said of the Yuuzhan Vong:

    "There is no variety, just the same self-mutilating, ethno-centric, single minded conquering barbarians."

    I don't know about you but the Yuuzhan Vong castes (Priests, Warriors, Shapers and Shamed ones) and their different agendas looks like variety to me.

    Another forum user said:

    "It's frustrating to think that we still have to put up with these already incredibly tiresome group of villians for another 11 books."

    Not for me, it's not. I'm not tired of the Vong and do not find them tiring at all.

    "I also don't like the fact that the Yuuzhan Vong are being portrayed as a far bigger threat to the galaxy than the Empire ever was. I think that it diminishes the whole SW film saga."

    You might want to rephase that. It is not a fact, it is your opinion. One I don't share the Vong aren't any more or less a threat than the Empire. If fact, the Empire was probably more of a threat, after all they actually gained control of the galaxy. As far as diminishing the whole SW film saga. The only thing I'll say to that is that you have got to be kidding.

  3. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    "I think it is disturbing when people actually think Kyp's behavior is acceptable and are seeing him as the true Jedi, when he is actually a smug action hero who wants to win at any cost."

    I for one think that Kyp's behavior is not only acceptable but crucial to the survival of the Jedi and the rest of the GFFA. I would like to ask you, who exactly is this true Jed iyou are talking about, if he exists? Is is Luke Skywalker, who is doing nothing to remedy the Vong invasion except to retreat and hide until there is no place left to do so? What has Kyp done that makes him a smug action hero? True, he relishes the attention he gets as squadron leader, but does he not simply take the action that the galaxy requires to be saved?

    As for Kyp doing whatever he wants to do at whatever cost, you don't have nearly enough evidence to support this. Yes, Kyp has resorted to mind-tricks and subterfuge to gain his just ends, but has not Obi-Wan and Luke and Yoda done this? A jedi has these powers for a purpose- to serve the higher good. The NR was not taking action, so Kyp realized he must take up the beacon of justice and carry it to the Yuuzhan Vong. Any cost? I haven't seen that one yet, quite an overstatement.

    As for the Vong's threat diminishing the SW Saga, I don't think that's the case Whereas the Empire successfully usurped power in the galaxy and ruled for decades, the vong have yet to take power and I doubt that if they take Coruscant that they will hold it as long as the Empire. The Empire wasn't a threat- it was the true power in the universe. The Vong are so-far just wannabes and soon-to-be has-beens

    As far as the Empire not being a stale threat, over hald the books you listed have the Empire or the Sith as a threat. The "Well the Imps were boring" does hold water when you look at the books. When every other book has another warlord or admiral or darth wannabe in it, you kind of hope another threat will arise.


  4. Nom Anor TFN Books Staff

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    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2000
    star 4
    If one looks at the bigger picture, the Yuuzhan Vong are the larger threat. One can judge a threat by its size, for it that were true than the Empire truly was the larger threat. The Empire did control the galaxy, yet people still lived and were able to flourish to some extent. Under the rule of the Yuuzhan Vong, the species of the galaxy are threatened with utter extinction.

    Limited Prosperity vs Extinction
  5. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    I did not say the Yuuzhan Vong are not a bigger threat. They are, and that's why I'm on Kyp's side in all this What I'm saying is that the Vong don't diminish the grandeur of the Empire because the Vong will never realize the success of the Empire.
  6. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Anor...
    "yet people still lived and were able to flourish to some extent."

    Well, then all that has to be done is realign your "positive thinking" from Imperial-optimism to Vong-optimism. Under the Vong, the people would uncover true enlightenment and flourish under the Vong gods by serving them the way Elegos served. Under the Vong, the people would live and flourish the exact same way the people of Alderaan and Mon Calamari and Kashyyyk lived and flourished. :D
  7. Nom Anor TFN Books Staff

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    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2000
    star 4
    Don't twist my words Genghis. I'm not trying to glorify the Empire, I'm just saying that it didn't kill every population they controlled. And what is this "Vong-optimism." We both damn well know that nobody (other than another Vong) would walk up to them and offer themselves to their gods. When one of the books focuses on the cizitens of the galaxy willingly sacrificing themselves to the Yuuzhan Vong gods we can have this conversation again.

    You don't have to like the series, I can understand that, but don't make it into something its not.

    On a side note: That other post wasn't directed at you Klivian. I understand your views and the deal with Kyp. To some extent I even agree. The Jedi should be doing more than sitting on their butts.
  8. Mecca-Don Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2001
    star 2
    I want to add to my previous post and comment on some forum members opinions on the Vong bio-technology. One forum member called it trekkish and said she expected Anakin to "mind meld" with some Vong contraption. I don't believe there is anything "trekkish" about the Vong bio-tech. Anakin used the force to communicate with the lambent in the EOV duology and through the lambent was able to sense the Vong. That's still belivable to me for the SW universe. When Vulcans "mind meld" with other beings, their thoughts become one with the thoughts of the being they are attempting to mind meld with. It is not the same thing. To say so is to show a lack of understanding for both the SW and ST franchises, IMO.

    "It's also a waste of space to keep being reminded of the Vong's self-multilations, sacrificed body parts and increasingly ridiculous bio-technology."

    No,it's not. for example, If for someone reading Rebirth is their introduction to the Vong and the NJO, they would need this info. As far as calling the Vong bio-technology ridiculous is concerned, One's lack of understanding of living technology does not make it ridiculous.
  9. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    M-D, do you know sarcasm, satire and humor when you see it?

    I was watching and loving Star Trek when you were still in diapers, and watching and loving Star Wars when you were in grade school. Believe me, I do understand both franchises. Each has its own unique place in pop SciFi/Fantasy.
    I think (please note the use of the word think, it denotes that an opinion follows) that the bio-tech in the NJO started out reasonably in VP. It was much like the ?living ship' in Black Fleet Crises. I enjoyed that part of the BFC even though many fans said it was too Trekish.
    However, since VP, most of the books have let the biotech run wild, using it to create a solution to every problem the Vong could possibly have, making it too easy, too convenient. Too easy for the Vong, too easy for the authors. The writers seem to be relying on Vong biotech as KJA relied on Imperial Superweapons for the crux of every situation. To ME this seems Trekish, not a bad thing in its own Final Frontier universe, but very out of place in the GFFA.
  10. Booster-1986 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 2
    Mecca-Don (notice I used your full name) said in part:
    "It's also a waste of space to keep being reminded of the Vong's self-multilations, sacrificed body parts and increasingly ridiculous bio-technology."

    No,it's not. for example, If for someone reading Rebirth is their introduction to the Vong and the NJO, they would need this info. As far as calling the Vong bio-technology ridiculous is concerned, One's lack of understanding of living technology does not make it ridiculous.
    You are correct in that if someone's introduction to the NJO is Rebirth, they would be at a disadvantage. My response would be: buy the rest of the books. You don't find Papa Tolkein explaining what the Ringwraiths are in The Return of the King. Neither does he tell you who Treebeard is or why Merri and Pippen came to be where they were. Likewise David Eddings restricted his "filler" to a three to five page intro in each of his books.

    It doesn't take 100 pages to reiterate all about uninteresting mutilation ... unless of course, one is into that sort of thing :D
  11. Bror Jace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 3
    Just for the record, I thought they were getting old before the 1st years' books were all out.

    I got sick of the Vong quickly knowing we'd have to suffer through them for 4 more years. :eek:

    Actually, I think DelRey chose to focus on the gooey buggers because it would be easier to crank out lots of books about them rather than having to properly deal with the existing SW continuity.

    When they got tons of fan backlash, they modified their plans including cutting back substantially from their original plan of 6 paperbacks per year. [face_mischief]
  12. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Bror...
    "Actually, I think DelRey chose to focus on the gooey buggers because it would be easier to crank out lots of books about them rather than having to properly deal with the existing SW continuity."

    Well, this is exactly the same thing Bantam did in 1991. They had a definite complete and total lack of existing continuity.

    However, unlike Bantam, Del Rey has chosen to incorporate strong existing continuity into the NJO series. In fact, nearly _ALL_ of the characters seen in Vector Prime were prior, established characters. Also, Del Rey brought in many old authors to help them plan the project to make sure "all of the bases were covered," so-to-speak. Del Rey has indeed properly dealt with existing continuity in a manner better than most companies who take on Star Wars projects.

    That's a lot more than can be said of the only other publisher to give hardcover Star Wars novels a try.
  13. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    Personally, I think the Vong were getting old after Jedi Eclipse...the authors can't seem to agree on a course for the species other then the biotech stuff which is really the most old thing about the books. Every book has to explain how the bio things work and how they compare to NR ships. This is dumb and takes up pages that could be used for better story.

    I think the worst thing is the hanging question of a final victory...yes or no?

    Everyone has a theory, but I think it will end up being SO ANTICLIMATIC after the hipe that went into HOW POWERFUL this species was, that it will end up tainting ALL the books.

    OR

    The ending will be unresolved, with the species still at war with the NR, and that will get older faster then the pathetic wainings of the empire did after Dark Empire.

    I am very hopefully that we can get through the remaining books, and get past the Vong for more interesting story material.

    P.S. I hope the unkown Regions turns out to be better then some dumb connector to the Vong invasion.
  14. Nom Anor TFN Books Staff

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    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2000
    star 4
    Why does everyone keep talking about how "every book wastes so much space explaining the bio-tech?" Whn a new device or weapon is introduced they don't waste a ton of space. The explainations are generally pretty brief (I should know - I have to write entries for the YV Database based on very little information). It's not like this wastes the whole book. Information on the biotech, if consolidated for each separate book, would only take up several pages. Out of 292 pages, that isn't that bad. And the same thing happened with the other books. We were always getting explanations of the Imperial technology and ships.

    As for continuity, Del Rey has done a far better job than the previous publisher. They have managed to bring in characters that fans wanted and tied up many loose ends as for what happened to many characters.

    And at the end of it all, we have to remember that the reason the NJO was started was partly because of the demands of the fans for something new and fresh. Lastly, for those complaining about the books, I'd like to see any of you on these boards try and write a novel that pleases everyone.
  15. G_Felix Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2001
    When the Vong first showed up I thought they were a good opponent. Their tech and tactics were new and something for the NR to learn to have to deal with. The problem is that the Vong are unstoppable...even when the NR know where they are going to be they still lose the system. I would like to see the NR win one once in a while. WHat ever happened to the pollen that kills the armor? Yes the Vong destroyed Ithor but why has the NR not bothered to research a way to create with tech or just found more of those trees. They obviously can grow on other planets. Just a thought

    Yes I know all the politcal back stabbing is what is causing the Vong to win, but give me a break the Senate has to see that every time a deal is made the Vong doublecross them.

    I agree, I like learning more about them, the other class and the shapers may be intersting. There tech is no better then NR just different and NR should have number on their side. Hell arm the population with blaster of every planet guess what taking an armed planet is harder. I think we need a balance point if Coruscant is taken I think I will not bother to read anymore NJO books. Lets try to keep some semblance of the SW galaxy around.

    Just my 2 cents....

  16. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Tell me:

    If the Star Wars movies had been produced in chronological order, do you think that you would have stopped watching the films after Episode III (which should be the darkest film of the six, presumably featuring Anakin's fall, the declaration of the Empire, and the deaths of many, many Jedi)?

    Have you never heard the phrase, "It's always darkest before the dawn"?
  17. Streick Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2001
    Stick with the Vong. Rebirth is the absolute best!
  18. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    AniSS, if the Star Wars movies had been produced in chronological order, I would have stopped watching after Episode I.
  19. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    I'm sure you would have, Dewlanna. More's the pity. Look at what you would have missed.

    Now take a stab at the question I posed. You've just seen Episode III. Palpatine has declared the Republic and democracy dead and installed his fascist New Order in its place. The Chosen One, Anakin Skywalker, has fallen to the dark side and become the murderous, evil Sith Lord Darth Vader. Bloody wars have been fought that devastated planets (just a guess). The Jedi have been exterminated or the purge has started. Mace Windu is dead. The newborn twins have been hidden, given to the Organas and Larses as foster children. Padmé is dead or dying. Obi-wan and Yoda are in hiding.

    The situation is exceptionally grim, far worse than after the "Attack of the Clones" in Episode II. To paraphrase a certain critic, who'd want to raise children in such a dark and depressing galaxy?

    Do you jump ship just because the future looks bleak for our heroes? Or do you stay along for the entire ride?
  20. The Gatherer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 1999
    star 6
    I agree with DL, things are just starting to get interesting . . .
  21. RingoJuna Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2001
    star 3
    Business is definately picking up!!
  22. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    Ani, I nearly didn't bother with RotJ because I so dislike ESB. The only reason I went was because ANH was so good and I had hopes that the space opera escapism, the wonderful, enjoyable adventure I'd found in ANH had returned.
    The expected darkness of EpIII, without the hope and adventure (and fun) of Ep IV (which EPI didn't have, and I'm not really expecting in EpII) would not make me anxious to watch any more SW movies. I will probably see Ep II and III, but only because of Ep IV and VI. I think GL knew what he was doing starting in the middle of the story. TPM alone would not have drawn me into SW the way ANH did.

    While we are on the "what if" track, I'll tell you that if Vector Prime had been my first SW book, it would have been my last SW book.

    I read to escape from real life. Life in general is full of unpleasantness, my personal life is full of tension and stress. I don't need or want doom and gloom in my entertainment.
    Up until the NJO, the most depressing thing in Star Wars was EBS.
    Now with the NJO, the spark of hope that so characterized SW is overshadowed by defeat and hopelessness nearly to the point of being extinguished. The classic battle of good over evil (both on a personal and galactic level) has been lost in a morass of barbarism and carnage. The excellent story telling of Zahn, Stackpole, Crispin, Tyers, etc has been replaced by the generic, fungible, cliché, hastily written, "big bad villains" invasion story. The very human heros with strengths and faults, brashness and humility, have been replaced with a couple know-it-all teens and their vacillating brother.
    The only thing left of the Star Wars that I loved are the occasional glimpses of Luke, Mara, Han and Leia.
  23. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Beautifully and intelligently expressed, Dewlanna. Unfortunately, I find myself in complete agreement about everything you said about the Star Wars literature and the NJO. I too want to be entertained when I read a book. I want to ENJOY these books, not feel depressed or frustrated during and after reading them. What's the point of buying and reading book after book after book that doesn't give the reader any pleasure, but instead makes him/her feel sad or discouraged?

    The only thing that kept me reading the NJO for this long was to catch those occasional glimpses of the Luke, Leia, Mara, and Han that you mentioned. Now the books are being taken over more and more by the superkids, and I simply have no desire to read about them. I feel no connection to these teenagers at all.
  24. jawamonkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2001
    star 4
    yeah theyre getting real old .. i havent even finished jedi eclipse cuz the last one was realy boring
  25. Nom Anor TFN Books Staff

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    Mar 4, 2000
    star 4
    Perhaps the constant fact that noone ever had to worry about the safety of their heroes is what made the old series of Star Wars books grow tiresome and boring. The New Jedi Order was designed to bring change, and changed it has. When times change, so too must people. Nobody said you had to like it, but you can't stop it so you should accept it.

    "THE ONLY CONSTANT IN THE UNIVERSE IS CHANGE - THE WISE ADAPT..."
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