Lit Zaarin's biggest mistake

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Andrelious, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Ceiran; all of the systems that Zaarin raided or owned facilities within have been mapped. In short, the battles against him took place between Cerea and Svivren, with several closer to Fondor.

    Which dovetails quite nicely with the Rebels gaining purchase in that region post-Endor; the Zaarin Insurrection had already depleted Imperial strength in the region, to the point that the defeat of an expanded Death Squadron was a major blow in the region.
    JoinTheSchwarz and CeiranHarmony like this.
  2. Andrelious Jedi Master

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    Sep 26, 2012
    Has anyone on the board ever attempted to list Zaarin's full fleet, that we know of through TIE Fighter?

    Given he's supposedly a Grand Admiral (is this a retcon because of his uniform at the end of Battle VIII?), the resources he would have were easily enough to damage a large amount of the Imperial fleet. It's a shame that Zaarin's little coup isn't mentioned much outside of the game - the Rebels would definitely have known about it thanks to Namuura Din....
  3. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    3-4 ISDs, one VSD, a plethora of Strike-class cruisers? Someone would be able to be more specific.
  4. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    I could, and probably name them all too by memory. I did blow them all up after all. Mmm 1300+ kills on Hard.


    Misa ab iPhono meo.
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  5. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    we should consider that though he was a Grand Admiral, he did not take all his forces into the revolt... lots probably would not have followed him and stayed loyal. so it stands to reason that only his most loyal core forces followed him, or those stupid enough to be controled by him despite not knowing they betray the Emperor.
  6. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    ... I kind of feel like playing TIE Fighter now.Still got my original collector's CD, still in perfect shape. One of my most prized possessions.
  7. King_in_Yellow Jedi Master

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    Jan 15, 2012
    But then we get an interesting counterfactual situation. If Zaarin had tried to bide his time Endor probably would have been a crushing Imperial victory. Zaarin's betrayal, even though ultimately doomed, inflicted lasting harm on the Empire. If not for the treachery of Zaarin the Imperial fleet at Endor would have been equipped with a multitude of TIE Advanced and Defender squadrons. I'd like to see the Falcon attempt to outrun a TIE Defender through the inside of the Death Star. Not to mention that with a better fighter screen that stray A-Wing might not have taken out the bridge of the Executor. Zaarin's campaign crippled the Empire's next generation fighter program. Fighter factory after fighter factory was destroyed during Zaarin's rampages.

    There's also the fact that the campaign to suppress Zaarin also forced the Emperor to deploy his most competent field commander. Imagine how Endor would have gone if Thrawn had been present instead of being forced to chase down Zaarin.

    This discussion also raises the question: did Grand Admiral Zaarin know that the Empire was constructing a second Death Star?If so maybe this knowledge forced Zaarin to act when he did. If he knew of the Death Star he must have realized that he had to take out the Emperor quickly because when the Death Star was completed it would permanently cement Palpatine's reign.
  8. Andrelious Jedi Master

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    Sep 26, 2012
    I am pretty sure that Zaarin knew of the DSII. During the final battle, specifically during the mission involving Namuura Din, it is mentioned that Zaarin 'prefers the Rebel cause be wiped out at Endor'.

    Also - there were Defenders at Endor..Onyx Squadron.
  9. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    What I find most interesting, though, is that TIE Fighter really seemed to make Zaarin a much greater threat to the Empire during the period between Hoth and Endor - certainly his destruction of much of the advanced weapons facilities didn't help the post-Endor Empire.
  10. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

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    With a TIE fighter? Incredibly.

    I can't even take out a shuttle by myself in X-Wing Alliance....
  11. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    X-wing Alliance is a lot harder, and you don't actually fly TIE Fighters for most of the game. After B5M1, you never fly an unshielded craft again.
  12. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

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    Right. You know, I knew that...very silly mistake to make on my part.

    Actually, taking a look at it, this game is stuffed to the gills with super fighters. Imagine if they had missile boats at Endor. That wouldn't have been fun.
  13. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Well not for the Pilots flying them as those things suck when flanked. ;)
  14. Andrelious Jedi Master

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    Of course it wouldn't matter as the Imperials were not to engage the Rebel fleet head on..do any of the Rebel capital ships die to means other than the DSII's fire?
  15. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    A cruiser is destroyed by the Tarlandia?
    Last edited by Sinrebirth, Oct 5, 2012
  16. Battlehymn_Republic Jedi Grand Master

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    A few thoughts:

    1. Zaarin's biggest mistake was that he overestimated himself and didn't cut his losses at the end. He could have reached out to the Rebel Alliance as a cobelligerent (which he really was, it's just that he also wanted to crush them too), and sought refuge with his forces with them. Seeing as how the game already has the example of Harkov, an Imperial who successfully managed to convince the Rebels to take him in, I don't think the Alliance is too picky about potential allies. Imagine the Battle of Endor with TIE Defenders and other fancy experimental ships on their side against the Executor! And after the second Death Star is destroyed, Zaarin turns on the Rebels with his ships (give his personality, he's bound to make such an error eventually, even if he had managed to survive for longer than he did in the game).

    2. I wonder how you successfully manage to convince an entire ship of Imperials (as Harkov did), much less a small fleet (as Zaarin did), to side with you against the Emperor. Any such coup would be fraught with spies still working for the Empire.
  17. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Both of them were probably working on their dudes for a long while. Let's not also forget the ingrained instinct to obey your direct superiors. Harkov apparently considered it atypical and odd that Stele would go out of his ways to investigate things, and basically saw him as the Emperor's spy. That sort of reaction to someone doing the right thing basically means that everybody else in his command just slavishly followed orders.

    As for refuge with the revolutionaries -- Harkov was able to join them because he was basically already a criminal. His sin was in selling arms to the highest bidder, including the Rebellion. Zaarin, on the other hand, detested Rebels both before and after his coup attempt. The Rebels would have no more reason to love him than they might any post-Endor warlord. His goal was to rule the galaxy in the Emperor's stead, a goal directly in conflict with that of Leader Mothma.
  18. Battlehymn_Republic Jedi Grand Master

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    Oh, definitely. I just figured that they might use him as a co-belligerent of convenience, not even an ally. Mostly it'd be entertaining to imagine Battle of Endor with the addition of dogfights between Imperial and ex-Imperial experimental ships.

    Incidentally, I once wrote an elaborate piece that included this: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/a-thousand-nations-au-timeline.27951573/ (I didn't get a chance to post it in its entirety)
  19. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    Zaarin, as we've seen, is just one in a long line of "secular" Imperials that tried to take over, from the incident in Ghost Prison to the one in Empire to Zaarin himself.

    It also makes the whole Imperial Civil War less the work of a madman and more of a paranoid who had already been betrayed numerous times - he wanted to make sure all the daggers would be coming from the front (and then brilliantly tried to recruit Luke)
  20. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Palpatine *DID* have a plan when he was kidnapped by Arden Lyn. It was called Darth Vader and Maarek Stele.
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  21. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    on the question how to convince full ship crews and fleets to turn traitor with you...

    easily done... just claim the enemy is not who he is. like the Emperor has been replaced by a clone lead by a cabal of Advisors and else... boom there you go.

    or if that does not work and you need falsified proof.. why not merely stick to the truth and staff your ships with leftovers of earlier insurections?

    Ghost Prison insurection sure provided some folks to aid in the Empire insurection, which had survivors that I bet aided in others.. be it waiting for Tarkin to take the Death Star against Coruscant.. or the other insurections by Harkov and Zaarin. I am sure all learned and build off of each other using previous ressources and people that survived somehow.
  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    In real-life rebellions, there's a certain level of inertia as well. One of my favorite scenes from Rome is where Julius Caesar has decided to rebel against the Senate and one of the characters is a loyalist. Unfortunately, since he's with the army he can't exactly desert without being killed (and was sick when they crossed the Rubicon anyway) and would be killed if he came over. Zaarin doesn't need to get everyone along with his plan, only enough that the others don't choose to rebel.

    Frankly, it's not like the Galactic Empire wasn't the kind of government you couldn't get an easy justification for rebelling against. Alderaan, the ISB, clone prejudice, Darth Vader, summary executions, Core World elitism, anti-alienism, ecetera, ecetera. Given the fact the Imperial ideology is shaped around creating fascists anyway, Zaarin would just have to appeal to the Imperial character.

    The Rebellion probably would have had even more recruits (and it had a LOT of recruits with recent revelations that it had 8% of the Empire's military assets) if not for the fact it was trying to restore the Republic.

    "Palpatine has run this thing to the ground and I'm saving the Empire. Everyone who lives gets a promotion and their own planet."
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Nov 6, 2012
  23. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    I really just think it's as simple as most of them are used to following orders and don't think very often.

    Also, I like how your list of things to rebel against includes hallmarks of the Old Republic: Core World elitism. You sound like a dirty seppie -- which, of course, is exactly what the Rebels were -- latter-day Separatists.

    Well. I'm still rather peeved about the Imperial Mutiny. It certainly was intentional though, and it's the best evidence that Dangor was in league with the cloned Emperor: if the Mutiny was to cull the vipers, then Dangor was deliberately being provocative in a way he hadn't been before in order to grab enough power to force the military, COMPNOR, Inquisitorius, etc to want a piece of the action.

    Still -- none of this would've been necessary if His Majesty hadn't seen fit to promote the most ambitious people he could find in order that they'd squabble against each other instead of himself.

    ...and it's not disloyal if you disagree in good faith for patriotic reasons.
  24. Battlehymn_Republic Jedi Grand Master

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    Bah! The Separatists had the greatest tragedy among the Shakespearean drama that is Star Wars. Politically led by weak-willed bean counters while military nationalists such as Supreme Commander Qymaen jai Sheelal or Alto Stratus languished due to Sithian treachery. The Separatists yearned to create a new Galaxy, a free Galaxy, and were cut down by cowardly machinations. It is a shame that the Separatist cause mainly died at Utapau, without any neo-CIS movements appearing. If the corpse of the Republic could inspire wooly-haired idealists to die for its cause, why not the dream of the Confederacy?
  25. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    2nd Clone War here we come... it actually did happen you know @Battlehymn_Republic!!! See Essential Guide to Warfare referencing post-ROTS wars till 17BBY with former separatists, early rebellions springing up and more.

    one just needs to unify that or enlarge the conflict to a 2nd Clone War which it basically is with all Zahn Spaarticlones going mad too to boot in that one
    Last edited by CeiranHarmony, Nov 7, 2012