Zayne Carrick- Revan?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Jul 23, 2007.

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  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Why doesn't anyone recognize Obi Wan Kenobi despite his bad dye job on the beard? It's been WELL more than a year's time since Carth's life went utterly to pott.

    Maybe he just needed a little jogging of the mind and it was "Zayne? Zayne Carrick! Man am I glad to see you!"

  2. Jmacq1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 4
    A little too much straining of common sense for my tastes.

    Obi-Wan Kenobi's bad dye job (assuming you're talking about what he looked like on Tatooine early on because I'm unaware of the dye job really) is probably more a function of living on a galactic backwater where the natives could give two hoots about Jedi, Sith, and the Empire. And it's not a matter of "anyone" recognizing him. It's a matter of someone who met him and had a memorable personal experience with him recognizing him, so your comparison is a poor one to begin with.
  3. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    Zayne is Zayne

    Revan is Revan

    honestly...is that all this series is to you folks? It seems like the only thing that ever comes up is "who's Revan gonna turn out to be"

    They should just drop an issue where Revan shows up as Revan...

    but then, maybe this is all that's carrying the title, so they are torturing you guys to keep you buying.

    The "mystery men" of comics...ALL the comics...are getting old DH.
  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I'm not so sure, I mean let's face it, Zayne was going to be pretty banged up from the whole being blown up by Malak's lasers even if they put him back together properly.

    Plus, Carth was kinda occupied.
  5. Alpha-02 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2006
    star 4
    They are spotty, the devastation of Cathar is something else that seems to have gone awry chronologically, even though JJM said he is aware of the issue. I'm interested as to how he will be able to reconcile the two, but there's always a nice retcon waiting somewhere :p

    Either way, I think the timeframe in terms of the years is very set in the comics due to the inside cover blurbs and because of the games the Jedi involvement in the Mandalorian Wars is pretty well laid out too. Certainly Jedi have become very powerful in relatively short periods of time, but Zayne has an awful lot to do in the space of a few months.

    First he has to resolve the whole issue with the Covenant and prove to the Jedi Order that he was totally innocent, without a confession it's hard to see how he could do this, with someone on the council like Vrook Lamar he'll need absolute proof, his word against five Masters isn't going to wash otherwsie. Then he has to study under several Masters, including Kreia, Arren Kae (if she =/= Kreia), Zhar, Dorak and maybe more. During this time he also has to be Knighted, become good friends with Malak and reach a position where he is able to convince a good number of Jedi to go to war against the wishes of the Jedi Council. It's not impossible, I just don't think that it is very likely.

    Also I'm not so sure that Kreia isn't Revan's first Master...

    "Revan had many masters, Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques. It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order." - Mical

    "At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

    You can always say that Kreia was lying, but I don't see the purpose in such a lie and if it is a lie it lines up very closely to what Mical says. Maybe the whole Order treats this as "a certain point of view", I suppose it's possible after Lucien and co. are discredited because of the padawan murders that the Order no longer refers to them and Kreia becomes the first Master. Though that to me would be somewhat of a cop-out retcon and I don't see JJM as the type of writer to do that, but we'll soon enough I think.

    As for Carth not recognising him I can't see a viable explanation as to why not, I know it is wartime and Carth's life is about to be destroyed by betrayal, but I can't see him completely forgetting Zayne. Sure nobody recognised Obi-Wan on Tatooine, but it's highly likely that there was nobody there who really knew anything much about him, much less what he looked like, let alone someone who knew him in person and had undergone events together like Zayne/Carth have. Also I'm sure Obi-Wan would have done his upmost to actually stay out of sight. Finally, there is the issue of Legacy #16 still to come, maybe someone from his past did recognise him?


    The series is much more than that, it is great in its own right whether or not Revan, Malak and co are g
  6. Jmacq1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 4
    Revan didn't even get directly hit by Malak's lasers. The ship got rocked, he was caught in the fringes of an explosion, and fell over. His armor barely even got singed by most indications. Certainly not anything that's likely to require major reconstructive surgery.

    Sorry, it's still just stretching it a bit too much for me. Revan being Zayne should have resulted in a "You're Revan?!? Maybe if I'd killed you when I had the chance things would be better!" moment. Not a complete lack of recognition.

    Not to mention Saul Karath's treatment of Zayne wouldn't likely put him high on the list of guys "Revayne" would have put in charge of his fleet. Sith are kinda big on that retribution thing.....
  7. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    As for Carth not recognising him I can't see a viable explanation as to why not, I know it is wartime and Carth's life is about to be destroyed by betrayal, but I can't see him completely forgetting Zayne.

    That's assuming that Carth never ever recognized him.

    I don't see why in the comic adaptation, if it ever occurs, Carth simply can't go wait "Oh zayne. It's you" after he reintroduces himself.
  8. jacemathem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 5
    Because he didn't do so in the game.
  9. Methodical Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2006
    star 1
    My new pet theory is that Zayne Carrick is Darth Krayt.

    What? It makes as much sense as anyone else...
  10. Alpha-02 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2006
    star 4
    Yeah, I was refering to the game as opposed to a potential comic, Carth is with Revan for a long time and has no idea who he is until Malak's revelation. Obviously in the game he wasn't going to say, oh wait I recognise you, Zayne Carrick right? but if he knew Revan from his pre-mask days then I'm sure he would have made a comment on the fact at some point. Also given Carth's inability to trust anyone for the most part in the game, I'm sure he would have commented on Revan/Zayne being someone he a) knew he could trust because of the past or b) knew he was someone he couldn't trust because of the past.
  11. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5
    If I remember correctly, Carth was somewhat angry when he found out that the Jedi had planted him on the ship and not told anyone about it. If he were in the know, I could have agreed with you...but being clueless he probably wouldn't have thought "My god, aren't you that kid that served me lunch?
  12. cbagmjg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2006
    star 3
    Charlemagne, how can you shoot down that he's Nihilus and yet argue that he's Revan? And Kreia was his first master. It's even stated that when he learned everything he could from other masters(like "that fool Zhar") he went back to his first master, which was Kreia. By now, Revan is already leading the Jedi against the Mando's. Revanchist leader is used for a reason and I highly doubt it's a red-herring. Revan will not, I repeat will not be shown without his face covered. And the people who say Zayne is more like the Exile and yet say the Exile is opposite of Nihilus...think about that for a moment. If the Exile's suppose to be female...If the Covenant is so worried about what Zayne might become...If Zayne is dead set on hunting down the Covenant, one by one...And if his "special relationship" with the force is more enticing to the bad guys(and you can't tell me that Haazen and Krynda aren't bad)than the Jedi...And i'm sure the word "special" doesn't mean that he's a brilliant, military minded leader like Revan. The phrase "special relationship" is something in the force that isn't normal. Something genuinely unique. It's also something that the bad guys would like to use to their own end. But to answer the real question of this thread, Revan won't be shown, therefore can't be Zayne.
  13. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    It's a theory. I won't deny Revan is unlikely to be Zayne. It's POSSIBLE he might be though.

    It's certainly a less darker tale than he becomes a mindless planet eating monster then dies before eternal damnation.
  14. cbagmjg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2006
    star 3
    Yeah, because you wouldn't want the Mandalorian Wars to be real dark or anything. This is an even darker era than the Clone Wars and the Empire. It's more like this...Zayne is unlikely to become Nihilus. Zayne becoming Revan is IMPOSSIBLE. If you go by that Carth would recognize him and the fact that Revan was his real name. Not to mention were a little too far into the era for him to even develop into Revan. You might of had more of a case if the series began 10 years earlier. The only thing I see that would link Zayne to Revan is that Zayne's parents have names similar to Revan(Arvan & Reiva). If somehow he becomes Revan, which I don't think there's even a 1% chance of it happening, then I will admit I was wrong. Until then...he's still the hooded, faceless Jedi, who happens to be the Revanchist leader. I doubt it's a coincidence.
  15. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I dunno, how would you feel if Luke Skywalker died in the Trench Run and they blew up Yavin?
  16. cbagmjg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2006
    star 3
    Even Luke Skywalker, the embodiment the word Jedi, toed the dark line a little in his training. But what does the trench run have to do with Zayne being dark/Revan?
  17. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I'm saying that all the build up can't possibly work out well with Zayne's eternal damnation as the most evil Sith of all time.
    People get upset when Korto Vos is suggested to be killed or corrupted.
  18. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5
    The Era may be darker, but the series thus far has avoided feeling gloomy and dreary (With the exception of "Homecoming"). Even when the Masters were butchering Padawans....about as dark as it gets......The Zayne/Gryph interactions made it feel far more lighthearted than it otherwise would have been.

    Zayne becoming Nihilus would be foul. I don't really even want to see Nihilus in Human/Humanoid form. No single being in the history of the Star Wars universe became as depraved and fine with such wanton massacre as Nihilus did. Seeing him as a normal person (Although no Jedi is just "Normal") would make it difficult to wrap my mind around his actions.
  19. SuperSaiyaMan12 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
    Theres a big hole in your theory C19. Zayne lacks Revan's charisma and tactical brilliance.
  20. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    The man with one eye is King in the land of the blind.

    Seriously, with officers like Saul Karath and a Jedi Council with Atris.

    Zayne Carrick is a genius.
  21. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I'm not as up on these things as Diz is, great source of knowledge and I'm learning a lot. That being said its not a battle. if they've thrown away the story from the games that was there choice, that could be why KOTOR 3 will never be. This is why I've never been huge into the comics by Dark Horse. They have done some good work I've seen but junk like dark empire really turned me off of them early on. Palpatine and Fett were dead until dark Horse got a hold of them, particularly hated the Palpatine ressurection.
    I'd love for Dark Horse to give me an excuse to buy more of their stuff, but stuff like their Legacy series is already screwing up the novel series from DelRey. They should have set that a thousand years in the future instead of 150. Diz just posted the other day about how they wrapped up Assajj Ventriss's story line, another prime example. Just cause Lucasfilm says its OK, doesn't mean they shouldn't put some thought into it.
    Tales of the Jedi was great, Bane is great. There are a lot of time lines they could play in and not interfere with other stories.
    Thats my opinion, I know lots of you love Dark Horse and thats fine with me. I just think they should put a bit more thought into the stories going on around them.
    It disapoints me that Lucasfilm and Dark Horse consider those games so bad that they have to rewrite them when they were already perfect in my mind.
  22. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    Dark Horse had nothing to do with giving Revan a canonical gender. It did not happen in a Dark Horse comic. It first happened in some column by Leland Chee (the head honcho for continuity with LFL) on the official site or in the Insider or something, then it was backed up in the New Essential Chronology (published by Del Rey). When I say "Lucasfilm did it," I don't mean "Lucasfilm OK'd it when Dark Horse did it," I mean Lucasfilm did it. For whatever reason, the people who make decisions about continuity decided Revan needed a canonical gender. It was like a decree from on high, and all the licensees (Dark Horse, Del Rey, etc) had to act accordingly. I don't think it's ever even been mentioned in a Dark Horse product once.

    Personally, I think it was a bad decision, but what can you do?

    As far as the other issues you raise, I don't think Legacy screws up LOTF at all, but even if it did, Legacy is so much better than almost everything published in the ROTJ-LOTF timeframe that I really could care less. Please, if only something could put a stake through the heart of the vampire that is the further adventures of Luke, Han, and Leia, the undead and seemingly unkillable thing that has been sucking the lifeblood out of the SW galaxy for what seems like forever. Why won't they just let that era die already?

    Re: Ventress - Obsession (aka When They Were Brothers), the storyline with the end of the Ventress arc, was pretty awful, and the ending was a sloppy mess. It was the worst volume of the Clone Wars comics overall. That said, Ventress had her debut in the comics. She was designed for the comics. The bulk of her appearances are in comics. She is a comics character first and foremost, who makes guest appearances in a handful of novels and the microseries. It's only fair and reasonable that her ending happen in the comics as well.

    It's also worth mentioning that the comics are the core of the Clone Wars era EU, and that's where the main storylines happen. It's the total reverse of the New Republic era, where the novels are the main storyline and the comics for the most part are sideshows.

    -----------

    As far as the main thread topic goes, I think that it's as close to impossible as something can get.

    As far as Nihilus goes, here's my theory on how it's going to play out:

    * The dark side hunger has the power to consume everything, and if left alone to its own devices, it will.

    * The talent Zayne has for forming connections with others will allow him to bind it to himself somehow.

    * When bound to Zayne, the hunger will be limited in power compared to what it would be otherwise. It will still be powerful, but finite and vulnerable.

    * Zayne heroically binds the hunger to himself, sacrificing himself to keep the hunger bound. What we call "Darth Nihilus" is really basically Zayne keeping the lid on Hell with his own body and soul.
  23. cbagmjg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2006
    star 3
    Anytime you take beloved characters from a movie and basically make their sacrifices die in vein by bringing back the Emperor is going to piss people off. The whole Skywalker story is played out. That's why other eras are much more enticing to me. There's alot more wiggle room and less to screw up.
    Personally, Nihilus is such a unique, yet ridiculous charater to the point where not touching on how he became to be a life sucking monster, who if you go by Kreia's description of you can't help but feel sorry for, it kind of makes the force look ridiculous. Malak bombards planets with big guns, yet people still live. It takes the Death Star to blow up an entire planet, yet Nihilus can destroy an entire planet by feeding off the force. I don't think there needs to be a backstory for it, but if done right, would personally give me closure to why he can do what he can do. If the Exile is supposed to be the counterpart to Nihilus, then it'll probably take the echo the Exile leaves behind to awaken the beast in whoever becomes Nihilus. I think Nihilus is the reason Kreia sees so much potential in the Exile. People talk already how Zayne's alot like the Exile, only he can't be because of gender. So that, to me, leaves only Nihilus. Just because people wouldn't like it doesn't mean it's not possible. If that was the case, explain Anakin in the prequels.

    But everybody is entitled to their own opinions. It wouldn't be all that interesting if everyone agreed on everything.
  24. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Just because people wouldn't like it doesn't mean it's not possible. If that was the case, explain Anakin in the prequels.

    But everybody is entitled to their own opinions. It wouldn't be all that interesting if everyone agreed on everything.


    It's also possible Zayne Carrick is a lot like the Exile because he was probably originally intended to be him. It's like saying Bastilla has to be Vima Sunrider because they're both Battle Meditation users.

    Of course, my own personal theory is that Lucien Draay is going to become Darth Nihilus. Because he'll be the one who confesses and lives.

    Thus his betrayal of the Jedi will be complete.
  25. cbagmjg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2006
    star 3
    Damn man, we can't seem to agree on anything. I see Lucien more in terms of
    Sion than Nihilus. Lucien's more brute strength like Sion. Nihilus is more force-based. And in terms of the force, Lucien takes a backseat to the seers. That's why i'm starting to believe that he's trying to sabotage his mother's plans like Sion trys to do to Kreia. "I want her to see all that she has built cast down" Sion. He's also so jealous of the Exile kind of like Lucien is of Q'anilia. Plus the name Lucien and Sion's accent just seem a perfect, irish sounding fit. Haazen's perfect foreshadowing for Lucien to become Sion.

    By the way, if he was intended to become the Exile, then why not just make him female. I'm sure JJM did his research on the subject ahead of time.
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