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VIDEO Zelda Fans Come Hither...

Discussion in 'Games' started by alpha_red, May 11, 2004.

  1. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Aug 16, 2002
    And if it's not the OoT that he has in MM and it's the fairy Ocarina, Saria might have given it to him regardless of the OoT tragedy never happening.

    Only the Ocarina of Time can alter time, not other ocarinas; the Fairy Ocarina is a normal instrument.
  2. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

    Mar 2, 2002
    No, he's supposedly looking for Navi in the intro to MM, I believe.


    I think you misread my previous post. :confused:
  3. 7-7-7

    7-7-7 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Dec 15, 2002
    Syrix_Kahl: Is that an official storyline, or a fan-made one? I've seen something like that on a couple of fan-sites, but it flagrantly contradicts plotlines from the games themselves, as well as what Shigeriuki Myamoto said a few years ago about the various Links and Ganons.

    A Link to the Past was said, both in the game itself and by SM a few weeks after OoT's release that it is the very first game in the Zelda chronology This includes a Ganondorf who was once human but turned into a monster, a world built specifically for the Triforce, and a Master Sword which had (seemingly) never been removed from the pedestal and lost deep in the forest. The Ganon of this game is the original Ganondorf, Prince of Thieves, who started the very first war in the Golden Land and who caused the assemblage of the first group of Sages. After that comes Link's Awakening, with its unresolved ending.

    Next come the original Zelda and its sequal, with the pure-monster Ganon, and the two Gameboy titles.

    A significant amount of time has passed between ALttP and OOT, which comes next. This can be seen in the evolution of various species, the changes in the landscape, and the fact that the master sword has been moved out of the lost woods and into the newly-constructed Temple of Time, where it can be looked after. This one features a brand-new Ganondorf, this time a Gerudo, who did not appear in earlier games, but appears in subsequent games, which further reinforces OoT's placement at the end of the timeline. Somewhere between LoZ and OOT, the Deku Tree sprouted, the Kokiri and Gerudos emerged, the Sheikah died off, etc. Then comes the events of OOT, with its new, mutli-racial group of sages, which is followed up directly after by MM (This is definately a direct sequel, since it includes one-time only characters and objects like Navi and Epona, as well as the Ocarina of Time.

    The Wind Waker is also a direct sequel to OOT. Not has it been specifically and repeatedly said that this is the latest, chronologically, game in the LoZ series, it also places itself as a direct sequel to OoT. Ganondorf is again a Gerudo, the very same one who comes from the deserts of OoT (He mentions this at the end of WW, and also makes references to Lon Lon Ranch and Hyrule Castle Market Town, both exclusive to OoT, and the fact that he was imprisoned for years, not destroyed like the ALTTP or LOZ Ganon) There are also pictures of the OoT castle in the opening scrolls, and the presence of multiple pictures of the sages from OOT is a dead giveaway that WW, the last in the series, takes place right after OOT.

    There also are more subtle hints that the Zelda chronology goes from ALttP, through LOZ, to OOT and WW. Hyrule Castle develops from a small tower in ALttP, to a bigger castle in LOZ, to an immense palatial fortress in OOT. The result of Ganondorf's presence in the world causes the destruction of this building and radical changes in the landscape (Hyrule ends up resembling Scandinavia before its destuction) There also are the Zoras, which were said to originally be fish-like beings who evolved into the sentient friends of the Hylians from OOT. In ALTTP, the Zoras are desgusting, finned monsters who bear a strong resemblance to fish. They evolve into the graceful and somewhat angellic beings seen in OOT and MM, eventually becoming the winged Ritos of WW. The Master Sword was originally placed in a pedestal deep in the Lost Woods, where Link I found it in ALttP. After that, it was returned to the pedestal, which was moved to the Temple of Time for safe-keeping. The three pendants were also resculpted into the three gems which needed to be found in OOT, and eventually into the three big glowing balls from WW. After OOT, the Master Sword was moved into the basement of the new cliffside Hyrule Castle, as seen in WW (Either that, or the castle was built over the Temple of Time) It wouldn't make sense for the Master Sword, which had once been a jealously guarded posession of the Royal Family and protected inside Hyrule's most sacred
  4. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Aug 16, 2002
    I think you misread my previous post. :confused:

    Dear lord, I'm so tired I'm practically asleep. I can't believe I misread that question. Sorry 'bout that; don't mind me.
  5. TheNextFett

    TheNextFett Jedi Youngling

    Apr 24, 2004
    i figured all the links were the same (except for the one in WW) its never really said that there a different links (except for WW).
  6. alpha_red

    alpha_red Jedi Youngling star 5

    Aug 24, 2003
    Wind Waker mentions the "Hero of Time" who came out of nowhere and defeated Ganon, then disappeared. In OoT, Link is returned to the past and Ganondorf never gains power-- thus allowing Majora's Mask happen; when OoT ends, Link never becomes the "Hero of Time." Since TWW mentions the future that never happened (as far as people at the end of OoT are concerned), that must mean that the world in TWW is a continuation of the timeline in which Ganon reigned over Hyrule for seven years before the "Hero of Time" came out of nowhere and kicked his ass. BTW, I consider the timeline with Majora's Mask as an alternate timeline, and TWW as part of the "main" timeline.

    If Ganon never gains power, then there is no basis for the legend in either timeline. It mentions the legend of the Hero of Time in both MM and WW.

    We can't really explain much of this, because we lack a definitive physical understanding of how time actually works, or if it even exists at all. But LttP did NOT come before OOT. OOT was the Imprisoning War mentioned in LttP. In the legend of the Imprisoning War, seven Sages sealed Ganon in the Sacred Realm with the Triforce, which because of his evil, became the Dark World. Over a period of time, Ganon was forgotten.

    Oh look! That's exactly what happens in OOT!

    And there are no multiple Ganons. There is one Ganon, but multiple Links.

    Unfortunately, there is no official timeline, but this is how I see it.
  7. Soontir-Fel

    Soontir-Fel Jedi Master star 5

    Dec 18, 2001
    I was looking foward to E3 mainly for Star Fox 2 and Metriod Prime. Sure I was going to be happy at a new Zelda, but I didn't expect much. A sequel to Wind Waker, only slight big deal. Then it happens.
    OM*G!!! Words, they are no use here.
    This is the game. All others are suplourious. Metroid Huh? Final Fantasy meh? Halo what?
    This is now the greatest thing to happen E3, ever!
    And Nintendo. You bastards! You kept telling us that it would be a Wind Waker 2 thing. And then you hit us with this...brilliance. My hat is off. My pants are off in joy. You amazing people. Then you tell us that it uses the Wind Waker engine, so you told us the truth. Shiggy, you are my God.
  8. Darth_Kevin

    Darth_Kevin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 30, 2001
    i figured all the links were the same (except for the one in WW) its never really said that there a different links (except for WW).

    I think it is heavily implied that there are multiple Links simply because there are multiple Zeldas from different time periods.

    I saw some recent interview where Nintendo officials wanted to make all of the Links the same Link, except for the Link of WW, however, that does not work considering the length of the timeline for all the previous games.

    The Zelda in Zelda II is supposed to have been in slumber for a LONG time, the ancestor of the Zelda from the first game - supposedly from the ALTTP era. I think the Zelda from Zelda II was supposed to have been the original Zelda put into deep slumber, and all first daughters of the King were named Zelda from that time onward. Thus, the Link from the original Legend of Zelda and Zelda II must be different from the Link from ALTTP.

    I think that retro-continuity was instituted at the time of OOT since the origin of Ganon is described slightly differently in OOT and ALTTP, however, both strongly indicate that there is only one Ganon. The human vs. gerudo issue is probably more due to changes from word of mouth. Remember, each game is a legend, thus exaggerations and minor discrepancies are allowed to exist as long as the main story remains intact.
  9. alpha_red

    alpha_red Jedi Youngling star 5

    Aug 24, 2003
    Gerudos likely refer to Ganon's tribe rather than an actual race of people. They and the Hylians both appear to be baseline humans with one distinguishing genetic trait and one only in each case. For the Hylians, it's pointy ears. For the Gerudo, it's the unfortunate thing where only one guy's born every century. Not unfortunate for the guy, though. ;)

    The Gerudo clan is a guild of thieves, and Ganondorf Dragmire, his full name for all people who didn't know, is referred to in LttP's manual as the King of Thieves.
  10. 7-7-7

    7-7-7 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Dec 15, 2002
    But we always must consider the fact that it was OFFICIALLY STATED that ALttP comes before OOT, or any other Zelda game, for that matter.

    And about the Imprisoning War: The events of OoT are not a war in any respect. They do not involve a king of Hyrule gathering seven sages to prevent a king of thieves from returning to the Hyrule from a parallel but alternate world. OoT is about a single individual who, throughout the course of seven or eight years, banishes a Gerudo (One of six distinct sentient Hylian races, as described in the OoT game book) with the help of a group of sages (two of whom already were "assembled" the other five who got together out of their own actions and free will) to "The Void Between Dimensions" not to an alternate world, much less the Golden Land where the Triforce was kept (And where the Triforce no longer was, seeing as how it resided in Ganondorf, Link, and Zelda, and was not a physical object any longer. The ALttP Ganon had a big physical object which he could touch an manipulate in the Golden Land. That object ceased to exist before OoT, and only third of it returned to physical form (for a brief period of time) in WW before the end of that game.

    IF OoT took place before ALttP (which, according to SM, it didn't) then that means that there would be two people with the name Ganondorf or Ganon (one a Gerudo thief, the other a King of Thieves and a general of a great army who battled the King of Hyrule and the Hylian army) banished to two different places at the same time. Even talking about it, it sounds funky. There is one Ganondorf, a Gerudo, who is imprisoned in a chaotic void of nothingness, and then there is another Ganondorf, a military leader, who is banished to a land where the triforce is kept, for overlapping time periods, meaning that there would be TWO distinct triforces!?!?! (Either two, or one and one-third Triforces, neither of which really makes any sense) Nope. I just don't see it happening.
  11. SoloCommand

    SoloCommand Manager Emeritus & GTA Coruscant Developer star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 15, 2001
    I thought that, from a chronological point, the Oracle games are in the same timeline as OoT and MM. Which explains the appearance of Tingle and Twinrova, among other things.
  12. Shadowknight1

    Shadowknight1 Jedi Knight star 6

    Jun 8, 2003
    There aren't enough words to describe this game. *drools*

    As for the timeline, The Legend of Zelda has the most muddled up timeline since Star Trek. :p
    I thought Wind Waker was supposedly a hundred years after OoT?
  13. Blithe

    Blithe Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 24, 2003
    Alpha_Red: made no effort to not scream like a girl.

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

  14. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    My take on this is, judging by the appearance on Link, that this new game follows the OOT/MM Link- though since we know very little at this point it's hard to say for certain.

    My take on the Zelda history (ignoring Shiggy's comments since that order makes no sense when you look at the elements in the game, and I'm gonna hope that it's just an issue of translation- but then he doesn't write the games anyways) is as such:

    OOT has to be the first title, and MM is obviously a sequel to it, so that's pretty easy to start off with. Those feature Link 1.

    So, we leave that pair with Ganon imprisoned. And we know Ganon isn't "freed" till ALTTP from that imprisonment. (as for how the other two triforces made their way into Ganon's possession- we can only conclude that over the centuries between the games, Ganon had minions such as Agahnim acquire them for him and brought them into the Dark World through means such as the warp tiles).

    By the end of ALTTP, Link destroys Ganon and brings the Triforces back to the light world.

    Now, Link's Awakening was portrayed as featuring the same hero from ALTTP, and thus it has to take place after ALTTP. Since the Oracle games end with Link leaving on the same ship he loses at the start of LA, they have to be placed inbetween ALTTP and LA.

    Yes, some characters from OOT appear in the OO games, but they aren't set in Hyrule and there is one key factor as to why they have to be set after ALTTP and not just after OOT: by the end, the baddies are trying to resurrect Ganon. However, Ganon was not killed in OOT or MM, but he was killed in ALTTP. And he has to have died in order for him to be resurrected, obviously.

    Additionally, the OO games start with the whole Triforce at the castle- and the light world did not have the whole triforce following OOT/MM.

    So those 4 games have Link 2.

    Next, we have The Wind Waker. Though his resurrection was defeated, Ganon's presence has now returned and is slowly regaining his power and we have the great flood. In TWW, the Triforce has once again been seperated, which sets the stage for them being seperated in LOZ and AOL.
    Additionally, the flood explains why Hyrule is in a state of disarray and why people are living in caves and mountains in LOZ.
    TWW features Link 3.

    Then, come LOZ, Ganon has fully regained his power, storms Hyrule, etc, is defeated again and then the events of AOL transpire, Ganon's minions attempt to resurrect him while Link finds the riforce of Courage and can thus unite the whole Triforce once again.

    That would be Link 4.

    And then you have a Zelda for each Link + one more Zelda, who is the original Pincess Zelda placed under the sleeping spell (and is who you awaken in AOL) and in who's honor all the daughters of the royal family are named after (the true "legend of Zelda").

    Anyways, that results in this order: OOT > MM | ALTTP > OOA/OOS > LA | TWW | LOZ > AOL

    While there is no perfect or official order for the games- from anaylsing the games and their paperwork, that's the most logical conclusion to arrive at, IMO.
  15. Darth_Omega

    Darth_Omega Jedi Grand Master star 6

    May 19, 2002
    Additionally, the flood explains why Hyrule is in a state of disarray and why people are living in caves and mountains in LOZ.

    The area in LoZ is only a part of Hyrule, its actually Death Mountain.
    In the direct sequel AoL you could see all those towns.
  16. alpha_red

    alpha_red Jedi Youngling star 5

    Aug 24, 2003
    Returning to Hyrule? Wow. That's not AT ALL what the LttP backstory is. It talked about kicking Ganon OUT of Hyrule.

    Miyamoto said LttP came first. Before OOT came out. Then, he changed his mind, which is quite the logical thing to do considering the games' contents. So OOT came first. End of discussion.

    Zelda says Ganon's wish to conquer Hyrule changed the Sacred Realm to a world of evil. Ganon was locked in that same realm with the Triforce of Power.

    Keep in mind that this is called the LEGEND of Zelda, not the Complete Accurate History Textbook of Zelda. That would suck. Some things get distorted over time into something else. Look at religious books and accounts of the Middle Ages.

    Judging by the evolutionary patterns of the Rito present in Hyrule at the time of WW, there appears to be multiple offshoots of Zora. King Zora confirms this in the Oracles, when he says that the River Zoras and his Zoras are different races. Not only that, the evolutionary differences seen from the Rito and the Zoras are too pronounced to happen over 100 years. Besides, the King of Hyrule says "Hundreds of years have passed since then..." Note the word "hundreds." Even if the traits were to evolve once each generation, which would definitely constitute magical interference, a time figure of no fewer than 1,000 years could be placed between OOT and WW.

    As for when LttP takes place, all we know is that it's after OOT, because Miyamoto said OOT is the first. We don't quite know where WW fits in, but it's quite possible for there to be even more offshoot races from the Rito and Zoras.

    T2Q's timeline is a good, logically founded timeline. The major points of the series order are all intact -- differences in small details cannot be argued with.

    Wow...debating on the Lit boards is good for your health.

    Anyway, about the new game, there's a quote from Shiggy and Aonuma that they're producers, but the director is unknown. They're not revealing any specifics on whether it's an OOT sequel or not.
  17. Pooja

    Pooja Jedi Knight star 6

    May 25, 2002
    Hm I didn't know the original LOZ was just Death Mountain.
  18. Darth_Omega

    Darth_Omega Jedi Grand Master star 6

    May 19, 2002
    Not exactly only death mountain just a remote region of Hyrule south of Death Mountain.

    Here's the map, its official artwork btw.


    I think T2Q is correct although I don't consider Link from aLttP to be the same as OoA/OoS for some reason. I always consider those games seperate.

    I also consider tWW to be a sequel to OoT adult time line.
  19. Vader_vs_Maul

    Vader_vs_Maul Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 4, 2003
    So far, I find T2Q's timeline to be the most likely one, except for the little error that alpha-red pointed out.

    But, anyway; the Deku Tree sprout tell's you in OoT about Link really being a Hylian, and that that is the reason why Link has grown up, and the Kokiri's haven't. He tells Link that his father fought in a war, and that his mother brought Link to the Deku Tree before she died.

    Judging from the stuff in the trailer it looks like the Link of the new game is OoT-Links father, because he looks him and Hyrule looks like it does in OoT. That army in the sunset could be fighting in that war. Maybe he too was summoned by the Great Deku Tree, and was destined to lead the Hylians against those others, whoever they were. But he was summoned at an older age. That would explain the Kokiri tunic and the Hylian shield, and perhaps even the Master Sword. However, it does not explain Epona, but hey, maybe it isn't Epona we see in the trailer. After all, the guy at the conference said "How do you know it is Epona?"

    And when he got his kid, Link Jr. he advised his wife or girlfriend or whatever to take the baby to the Deku Tree, and the Deku Tree sensed that there was something special about him, like his father. (This is starting to get a little Star Wars'y.)

    Imagine being Links father on horseback leading a great army behind your back cutting through the hordes of enemys on horses coming straight at you, and with the Minas Tirith music from LOTR in the background!

    EDIT: Man, this all turned into wishful thinking [face_laugh] Dudes just forget what I said. LOL! Still, it would be cool as all heck! It just would'nt be much Zelda-like. :p
  20. ElfStar

    ElfStar Jedi Padawan star 4

    Mar 24, 2001
    I think TSQ's timeline is pretty much correct. The only thing I would change is WW, which I think is part of an alternate timeline.
  21. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Aug 16, 2002
    I always thought TWW came before ALttP, because TWW only mentions the events that took place in OoT. Plus, many of the races and places are direct continuations of the races and places in OoT(i.e. Zora, Kokiri, Gorons, Death Mountain, the Deku Tree).
  22. obi_wan_kanathan

    obi_wan_kanathan Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 10, 2001
    I could have sworn that SM mentioned after OOT that the timeline was split into two different branches. One happened in OOT's future, with Hyrule messed up, but Ganon trapped, and the other with Link coming back in time to change the past. If that's true, then it opens up a lot of possibilities for the timeline.
  23. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    Only reason I wouldn't place TWW before OOT (beyond it setting up LOZ nicely) is because you'd have to explain Ganon getting out of his prison, and I think doing so detracts from the story of ALTTP.

    >>The area in LoZ is only a part of Hyrule, its actually Death Mountain.
    In the direct sequel AoL you could see all those towns.<<

    While the area of LOZ is only a small part of greater Hyrule in AOL, that area is actually the same area ALTTP and OOT's maps use (compare them- ALTTP is similar to LOZ, and if you rotate OOT's counterclockwise slightly, it matches up as well).

    In other words, LOZ, ALTP and OOT all take place in the same general area of land, while AOL expands beyond those borders.
  24. DarthMaul431

    DarthMaul431 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Sep 19, 2003
    Where is everyone getting the idea of Zora's "evolving" into the Rito's of WW? Was it officially stated by Nintendo or is it just speculation?
  25. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Aug 16, 2002
    It is said the Ritos came from Zora in the game.