VIDEO Zelda Fans Come Hither...

Discussion in 'Games' started by alpha_red, May 11, 2004.

  1. DarthMaul431 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2003
    star 2
    Does anyone know where I can find good quality images of the stained glass windows of the 6 sages from OoT that was shown in WW? I'm looking all over and I can't find them!!!!

    [100th Post!]
  2. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    You'll have to elaborate on that- OOT's timetravel thing is tricky.

    Well it is ;) We all know that Link travelled between past and future time line in OoT in order to beat Ganondorf. That ability to travel through time made him the Hero of Time.
    After you've beaten the game Link put back the Mastersword in the Temple of Time and the ability to travel through time is lost.
    Many people interpret this as the entire timeline being reset and the OoT future timeline where Ganondorf destroyed the lands 'never' happend. Yet Ganondorf is sealed.

    Let's say this is correct how can TWW be refering to future timeline? e.g. the stained glass windows with the sages, the Hero of Time legend in the beginning (remember young Link was too young to be called the Hero of Time), the images of Volvagia in the first dungeon, the statue of adult Link in Hyrule Castle etc.
    This stuff supposed to have 'never' happend.

    Now a quote from the ending of OoT "You must lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time... However, by doing this, the road between times will be closed..."

    "The road between time will be closed" just because you can't get there doesn't mean it will cease to exist.
    I admit quoting doesn't really work it really depends how you interpret it.

    I also admit this theory has its flaws especially regarding the Triforce/Ganondorf situation. (e.g. are there now two Ganondorfs and two Triforces one in each timeline?)
    Hopefully the new Zelda will answer this.

    I see it the opposite way- if the Triforce is seperated already, it would be easier for it's three components to be spread out (hidden or eventually fall into the possession of the castle).
    Hmm, interesting. I have yet to finish TWW, so I'll have to look into that. But it could still work with TWW after ALTTP (the triforce being seperated post-ALTTP, resulting in one piece faling back into Ganon's hands...er..hand [face_batting] and the other two being spread out)


    Apologies for the TWW spoiler :) BTW do you know what happens in the entire ending?

    Ahhh yes and now the prologue of AoL comes to mind, you can read it here

    I'll use two quotes, I suggest you read the entire thing as it has some interesting information I'll be quoting:
    "It is said that long ago, when Hyrule was one country, a great ruler maintained the peace in Hyrule using the Triforce."
    "There are three kinds of Triforce - Power, Wisdom, and Courage. When these three are brought together, the Triforce will share its maximum power. Of the three, I have left Power and Wisdom in the kingdom. But the Triforce of Courage I have hidden for a reason."

    The first quote fits better with an era somewhere after aLttP and the second quote seems to fit how the triforce is scattered for LoZ/AoL.

    I've no clue how the entire "Legend of Zelda" fits in the entire serie though.

    Actually, you'll note the castle in TWW is located where the castle in ALTTP is set, not the OOT one.

    True it seems to be more aLttP orientated then OoT, although it doesn't necessarily mean it is the same castle seen in aLttP (e.g. I'm missing the court yard, the small garden surrounding the outer wall, the outer wall it self, I'll stop now I'm being picky :p )

    That detail would support a OOT-TWW-ALTTP progression, granted. Though you could argue that Link in ALTTP never meets any of those "old hyruleans".


    True however when you grab the book of Mudora:
    "You found the Book of Mudora! You can use it to read the ancient language of the Hylia!"

    For an ancient language it becomes quite popular again ;)

    Chalk it up to ALTTP being made first before OOT was designed, and it being presented in a sort of old scroll or book of mudora illustration. Reall, though, that while they were originally called "Wise Men" in the SNES version, when they ported it to GBA, they changed the description to "Sages", an obvious attempt to make the OOT-ALTTP connection more clear

    Ahh ok, I'll leave this point alone then.

    Good observa
  3. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 5
    Second time I'm going to say this:

    From GameSpot:
    "Additionally, this game is the same one that Aonuma referred to as "The Wind Waker 2" back at the Game Developers Conference in March. The game won't be called The Wind Waker 2 when it's completed, and it won't be a sequel to the last GameCube Zelda game."


    I read most of the Zelda coverage, and it seemed to me there were a few conflicting statements about whether or not the new game is a sequel.

    Also, it was always my hope that in the next game the water would be "drained" magically somehow.
  4. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    "The Legend of Zelda: Down the Drain" probably wouldn't instill a lot of confidence in gamers... ;;D


    >>Apologies for the TWW spoiler BTW do you know what happens in the entire ending?<<

    Don't worry about it- the games a year old and I wouldn't get into deep storyline discussions if I wanted to avoid such spoilers.

    On the flipside though, I don't know the exact ending events yet, no, as I haven't actively pursued such spoilers either. But if there is something there you feel negates my current timeline analysis, feel free to bring it up (though if you could avoid a play-by-play of the ending, I'd appreciate it ::) ).

    >>Many people interpret this as the entire timeline being reset and the OoT future timeline where Ganondorf destroyed the lands 'never' happend. Yet Ganondorf is sealed.<<

    The whole OOT ending is tricky to figure out, but one way I've looked at it is that Link traveling time just allowed him to fight his battle on two fronts "at the same time", so to speak- and gave him a safehaven during the 7 years of Ganon's rule.

    And, as a result of this, while Ganon was ultimately defeated in the future, the events leading up to his defeat still occur after Link returns to the past. And, knowing he can't interfere with those events, he leaves Hyrule to search for Navi. (which then makes a great place for this new Zelda to occur, btw- Link returning 7 years later to clean up what Ganon left behind, or even attempting to intervene in that interim).

    This concept is supported by a few details- the destruction of Hyrule castle results in the construction of the new castle seen in ALTTP and TWW, the various OOT sage references and such you've mentioned, and the description of what happened to Hyrule during the Imprisoning War in ALTTP's intro remaining, in broad strokes, accurate.

    >>That's possible, I was more thinking if OoT - LttP - TWW - LoZ is true that would mean Death Mountain would be Volcano - Mountain - Volcano - Mountain instead of a more logical Volcano - Volcano - Mountain - Mountain.
    Oh well minor point<<

    But a valid one- assuming it's not a matter of just not seeing the DM volcano peak in the LOZ/ALTTP maps, you would be correct about where to place it, from a geographic viewpoint.
  5. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    (which then makes a great place for this new Zelda to occur, btw- Link returning 7 years later to clean up what Ganon left behind, or even attempting to intervene in that interim)

    Problem: according to TWW, the "Hero of Time" never returned. I, however, would like to know what happened to OoT Link after MM, and why he never returned to Hyrule. Then again, perhaps he did return, then laid low for the rest of his life; Ganon's return may have happened after OoT Link's death, or OoT Link was actually killed in the event(of course, only Ganon would recognize him if he wasn't wearing the green tunic).
  6. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    This could still be OOT Link 7 years later, if it's not set in Hyrule, then.

    Only trick really is then Link couldn't face and defeat Ganondorf, since hisself from the past would theoretically be doing so.
  7. alpha_red Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 5
    Perhaps it meant that Link returned to Hyrule, but never faced a threat on Ganon's caliber again -- a lesser threat would not require him to pull out his full power and smack it down.
  8. Bodknocks_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2004
    star 3
    This is just every day discussion for me and Alpha.

    *Yawn*
  9. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Or perhaps Link couldn't fight against Ganondorf because he wasn't there as he was in the "past" timeline :p

    Also, it was always my hope that in the next game the water would be "drained" magically somehow.

    Not sure if that is going to happen, they did use the triforce in order to flood Hyrule, so at the moment it doesn't exist.

    But if there is something there you feel negates my current timeline analysis, feel free to bring it up (though if you could avoid a play-by-play of the ending, I'd appreciate it ::)

    Ahh ok I'll try ;)
    Basicly at the end the pirates and Link search out for a new land that they can call Hyrule.
    Assuming they found the new land, it could explain the geographic differences between aLttP/OoT yet there are no or little differences between OoT/TWW (besides the fact it is all under water)
    Maybe the new land they found is LttP/LoZ Hyrule. Thus solving the entire geographic differences between the series.

    "The Legend of Zelda: Down the Drain" probably wouldn't instill a lot of confidence in gamers... ;;D

    [face_laugh]

    You know when I read the title I'm imagining the entire world being one huge water temple where you have the ability to raise and lower the water level :p

    This concept is supported by a few details- the destruction of Hyrule castle results in the construction of the new castle seen in ALTTP and TWW, the various OOT sage references and such you've mentioned, and the description of what happened to Hyrule during the Imprisoning War in ALTTP's intro remaining, in broad strokes, accurate.

    I find the entire theory quite interesting but I was wondering about the "Hero of Time" reference in the opening of TWW.
    Let's say you're correct the "Hero of Time" couldn't happen because when Link returned from his search for Navi and has to face Ganondorf again for the second time in his normal timeline. He probably doesn't have the need to travel through time and of course the "roads" between the two worlds are closed.
    I'm not sure if I'm making such sense here :p

    Oh well I do think this game is a sequel to OoT - MM.
  10. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7
    There is a gap in the middle of the Triforce, when they're stacked together. An upside down triangle. Just a bonky idea, but they could make it the Antiforce, the only artifact that can threaten and destroy the Triforce, if it were fitted into the center.

    And the hunt for it first---Link, or Ganon's apprentice, Vanon---makes the game . . .

    :cool:
  11. Vader_vs_Maul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    I have a theory: What if all the Link's are 'The Hero's of Time' simply because there are som many Link's that come and go. Maybe the fact that Link always comes back makes him (or them, actually) The Hero of Time. And the reason why they say that The Hero of Time didn't come back that time long ago, in TWW is because this time there came no Link.

    So the people of Hyrule beleive that there is only one Link who travels through time and saves the world, each time, because he always has the same clothes. For this reason they call him The Hero of Time. By the time of TWW, however, they have stopped believing that The Hero of Time will come to save them every time, because there was once when he didn't show up. So from that time on, it became custom to give all boys green Kokiri tunics when they come of age, and give them combat training and so on, hoping that this will help them find or , y'know create and train up someone else worthy of being The Hero of Time.

    What do you think about that?
  12. Soontir-Fel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    But in TWW it clearly states that you are the Hero of Winds. How could you be both Heroes?
    I love geeky debates. They are like no others.
  13. Vader_vs_Maul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    >> But in TWW it clearly states that you are the Hero of Winds.<<

    It does? Well, beside that, are there any other thoughts?
  14. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    >>Maybe the new land they found is LttP/LoZ Hyrule. Thus solving the entire geographic differences between the series.<<

    Though isn't it a bit of a stretch that they'd find a new land that resembled "old Hyrule" so closely?

    >>I have a theory: What if all the Link's are 'The Hero's of Time' simply because there are som many Link's that come and go. <<

    Though that application of the title could work, I'm reluctant to use it as such since it seems like it was used more to describe the hero's actions and only the OOT/MM Link actually traversed time.

    Plus, if that were the case, it'd make it a little odd for someone to be naming their child Link, ya know?
  15. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Actually the title "Hero of Time" is used towards the one who wields the Mastersword, using the Ocarina of Time to travel through time, controls the 7 sages and has to be atleast a young man.
    Or something like that you probably have to play OoT again and read the light sage comment on it.

    So technically speaking there is only one "Hero of Time" so far and he lost the title as soon as he put the Mastersword back into the pedestal in the Temple of Time.

    Though isn't it a bit of a stretch that they'd find a new land that resembled "old Hyrule" so closely?

    Well, it could explain the differences in location etc. Maybe some regions have been 'man'-made to resemble the old Hyrule :p
  16. Vader_vs_Maul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3

    Plus, if that were the case, it'd make it a little odd for someone to be naming their child Link, ya know?


    What if they all weren't named Link? What if only one of them was named Link, but since a boy came like every hundred or thousand years and saved Hyrule, and looked the same each time, the people of Hyrule presumed that it was the same guy all along, and that he had the power to travel through time.

    I don't think the story is meant to be interpreted in a way in which all the Link's were really named Link. They were all special in some way, which made them destined to be the saviour of the world, but I don't think being named Link is a sort of qualification for that role.

    In the newer games the name is decided by your file name which, I think indicates that the name isn't important.

    EDIT: Sorry, you posted before i got the chance to finish, Darth Omega, so i didn't see your explanation.

    2nd EDIT: However, what's your opinion regarding wether they all were really named Link or not?
  17. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    >>I don't think the story is meant to be interpreted in a way in which all the Link's were really named Link.<<

    I think we can assume that, at the very least, the original LOZ/AOL Link was meant to be named Link, since back then there was yet to be multiple Links.

    >>In the newer games the name is decided by your file name which, I think indicates that the name isn't important.<<

    Many games let you replace the default character names with your own, but I don't think that's meant to imply none of them have a "real" name.
  18. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    However, what's your opinion regarding wether they all were really named Link or not?

    In the newer games the name is decided by your file name which, I think indicates that the name isn't important.


    I think the name is important or else we wouldn't have the name "Link" in atleast 2 of the Zelda titles (Adventure of Link and Link's Awakening) neither Link are the same.

    I always see the name aLttP as a connection to the past not a 'Link'(as in name) to the past.
  19. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    ALTTP was probably meant to have a double meaning- both "connections to the past" and "a hero for a previous era"- gives it a stand alone title but also implied it's "prequel to LOZ" nature.
  20. Syrix_Kahl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2001
    star 4
    "There is a gap in the middle of the Triforce, when they're stacked together. An upside down triangle. Just a bonky idea, but they could make it the Antiforce, the only artifact that can threaten and destroy the Triforce, if it were fitted into the center."

    Already been covered, my friend. I believe it was done in the comics or cartoon. IIRC, a "hidden power" is represented by the upside triangle shaped gap in the middle of the triangle, however, I do not believe that it's purpose was ever revealed completely.

    Back to the timeline...

    Darth Omega's placement of tWW in the timeline seems to hold water(excuse the pun), as far as I can see. And if I've read everything correctly his timeline goes something like this: OoT-MM-tWW-LttP-LA-LoZ-AoL.

    The games offer quite a bit to back this up, however, there are still a few points that are bugging me. The major point revolves around the world of tWW and it's history as portrayed in the opening sequence. It talks of a legend that is "one of many" and it's clearly talking about OoT. That doesn't matter too much, we all know OoT is at the start of the timeline, so that point is moot, however it what the happens next that is interesting.

    The boy, who was called the Hero of Time rode away to other lands and his story was passed down through generations until it became legend. Now that to me suggests a good many years, which will become important later. The other important bit of information is the "man of great evil" who seizes the Triforce in the legend. The depiction of the man is clearly Ganon, as seen by his piggy nose. Now one day the man of great evil comes forth again, breaking free of his prison. The people cry out fo help, get sealed away by the gods, yada yada yada...

    This is where things start to get confusing and where we need to start understanding the relationship between Ganondorf and Ganon, which hopefully the new Zelda will shed some light on.

    Fact#1: The intro movie depicts Ganon's freedom from the sacred realm as his second attempt to gain control of Hyrule.

    Fact#2: The man of great evil is depicted as Ganon, not Ganondorf.

    Fact#3: It is Ganondorf you fight against in tWW, not Ganon.

    Fact#4: It is Ganon you fight against in LttP, not Ganondorf.

    Fact#5: Ganon needed the decendants of the 7 sages to break free from the Golden Realm in LttP.

    Fact#6: The 7 sages seal Ganon in OoT, only Link and Zelda seal Ganondorf in tWW.

    And so the plot thickens. If D_O's timeline is correct, then perhaps Link II (of tWW) is infact Link III, and the new Zelda will star Link II - in which case the WW intro is incorrect, but it can be excused since it was released before hand.

    The only other explaination is that tWW has to occur after LttP, but who knows when? And although the general geography seems to more or less lend a hand D_O's timeline, perhaps the changes to the land can be explained away by the powers of the Triforce, especially the Triforce of Power. Perhaps the world is changed subtely by Ganon's whims each time he breaks free?

    Thoughts anyone? I think I've fried my brain...
  21. alpha_red Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 5
    Ganondorf is Ganon. Ganon is Ganondorf.

    All the thought you need. Other than that, good post.
  22. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    star 10
    I always hoped they'd bring back his other name/title- Mandrag Ganon ::)

    Though it was meant to be his name, it makes a nice sounding title. Like King or Lord. Mandrag Ganondorf Dragmire has a nice ring to it.

    >>There is a gap in the middle of the Triforce, when they're stacked together. An upside down triangle. Just a bonky idea, but they could make it the Antiforce, the only artifact that can threaten and destroy the Triforce, if it were fitted into the center<<

    Some people speculated about a "4th Triforce" back when OOT came out- I believe early screenshots of Link's shield showed an upside down triforce triangle at the bottom of his shield underneath the bird. Some theories involved a dark goddess, possibly as shown in the desert collosus in OOT.
  23. Syrix_Kahl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2001
    star 4
    alpha, thanks. I probably should have been a little clearer with my reason behind those facts. I know that Ganon = Ganondorf, I was posing a question in regard to the WW intro movie:

    IIRC, Ganon was sealed away in piggy form at the end of OoT, right? In which case his representation in the WW opening really doesn't contradict anything... except for the fact that Ganon only exists as Ganondorf in tWW. Also, LttP shows Ganon as piggy form only - OoT was the first appearance of Ganondorf as such. BUT, tWW ends with Ganondorf being sealed in stone.

    So, I think basically I'm asking: Does tWW really come inbetween OoT and LttP? A lot of the in-game details would suggest that that is the case(as D_O pointed out), but the beginnings and endings would lead you to believe otherwise. I've got two solutions. The first is an alternate version of the timeline:

    OoT-MM-LttP-LA-LoZ-AoL-tWW

    With tWW occuring 1000, maybe even 2000 years after AoL. All the adventures of the previous heroes have been rolled into the one legend and would explain why the WW opening movie makes no mention of Ganon returning between the end of the legend and the beginning of the game. Also, (and I've just realised this) the movie makes no mention of the sages sealing Ganon away, only that the Hero of Time defeated him. Now we know that the seven sages, for all intents and puposes, don't exist in tWW - there are only two. Another reason to suggest that tWW takes place many, many years after everything else.

    But D_O's timeline could also hold true, if we insert the new Zelda game (NZ) into the timeline like so:

    OoT-MM-tWW-NZ-LttP-LA-LoZ-AoL

    If the new Zelda describes a time when the waters have rescinded and Ganondorf is freed once more, only for Link to seal him away again with the help of the seven wise men/sages.

    It looks like we've got a bit of a wait to see. :)
  24. alpha_red Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 5
    The chief problem is knowing where WW fits in. If Nintendo would just say something about that, all our problems would be solved.

    Well, not really. Just our timeline problems. I'd still be single.
  25. TIE1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    I was always under the impression that like Link and Zelda, there are multiple Ganons and Ganondwarfs - and not necessarily the same number of incarnations.