Zimbabwe

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Bobavader, Sep 13, 2002.

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  1. Bobavader Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2001
    star 1
    what are your thoughts and feelings about what is going on in zimbabwe right now
  2. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I don't see how this belongs here, although I'm open to hearing otherwise if it makes sense.

    I can't say I know what's going on there right now, and I don't know how many others do either.
  3. Bobavader Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2001
    star 1
    http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/09/12/un.zimbabwe.ap/index.html


    dont people read or watch the news here....maybe you are spending too much time on the boards? no

    it is relevent...its news..its political
  4. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Dude, you have to state an opinion yourself. Many of us know about Mugabe's intentional starving of the opposition and his countrymen to serve his sick political agenda (and hold onto power).

    I think it is a travesty that the leaders of South Africa and other regional powers have not spoken out against his 'Pol Pot' tactics. I think it is a travesty that the West, other than Britain, has not made more of a stink about it (although the US did bring up this subject at the World Conference last month, and received a chorus of boos from the delegates, all who presumably supported a fascist dictator who creates famine in his own country).

    I think there are far too many failed states in Africa, and I'm wondering what the international community can do about it. Clearly, a few billion more dollars a year and writing off some of the debt would be a start, but I believe the framework of international relations and regional conditions are playing a larger role than lack of foreign aid in the failure of so many states. Poverty is directly attributable to this, as well, as no unstable government can sustain a growing economy.
  5. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Personally, I find this to be the best of ironies, and support it based on what I know.

    Their land was taken away ages ago. The [new] government is giving it back. It is now and again up to the indigenous peoples to harvest crops and sustain themselves; although, admittedly, it will likely take time and aid from outside, as many have not been in a position to learn farming before taking on the plots of land. Many skills have been forgotten through the generations.

    Zimbabwe is no longer within the British Empire. Why should anyone treat it as though it were?

  6. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Actually, when last I looked Zimbabwe was still part of the British Commonwealth.

    Secondly, I think the out cry has less to do with the native Zimbabweans farming the land then the treatment that has been metted out to the white farmers.

    Kithera
  7. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    I thought the country had gained its independence from Britain.

    As I said: it's a touch of irony that the white farmers now are losing their lands to the black populace. I do not know how they are being taken from the land, but I do remember from history lessons how they first acquired it. It was not peaceful, by any means.

    I understand the outcry, but I do not side with it.
  8. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Che, you're being intentionally blind. First, you're ignoring the deliberate starvation of the *black* opposition in his country. Second, your overlooking the fact that no matter what racial-leftist agenda he is trying to pursue, nothing can justify turning Zimbabwe from a net food exporter into a famine state. Third, no government can rule fairly and democratically without private property rights. Fourth, even if the eventual racial agenda was to redistribute some land away from indigenous white farmers and allocate it amongst the black population...is famine, lynch mobs, crop burning, intimidation and murder the proper way to do this?

    Mugabe is a brutal dictator, using a racial agenda as an obvious screen to remove the democratic opposition within his country and amass more power. Any sympathy anyone may have with his professed racial/anti-colonial agenda is being willingly duped into supporting a silent genocide of hundreds of thousands (or more) within his own country.

    But, that's what people have been doing for Saddam and the sanctions, so why should this be any different?
  9. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Perhaps I should restate my view. I agree that violence is not the answer. It never is.

    Having said that, I understand the meaning behind Mugabe's land distribution program. As he says: "The primary objective of our agrarian reforms is to redress the colonial injustice perpetrated by Britain whereby a minority of British settlers in 1890 seized our land and acquired our natural resources but never paid any compensation to our ancestors."

    It will take time to rebuild. It will take time to restabilize the area. But I think it is needed and long overdue.

  10. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    Have you seen Mugabe's speech for Johannesburg? If you had seen it then you could understand why other *black* nations might boo the (white) US for trying to adress the subject. He's good at playing sentiments I must admit.
  11. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    If Zimbabwe had oil,i think things would be different !!!
  12. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "But I think it is needed and long overdue."

    And if Mugabe were going about it differently, there might be a case in his favor--but this isn't justice; it's an act of... well, what do you call it when a dictator starves his own people and encourages them to slaughter each other?

    If you're going to defend Mugabe, you'll have to do better than, "His heart's in the right place."
  13. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    If you're going to defend Mugabe, you'll have to do better than, "His heart's in the right place."

    Why? That's what they say about Bush and his remark about "going it alone" into Iraq.

    The [white] minority seized that land through violence, why is it so shocking that the majority would take it back in the same fashion?
  14. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    You sir, are an idiot. It's not just you either, it is half of the people in this forum.

    Horray for Hitler!
    His heart was in the right place! The Jews were the ones who caused Germany's problems in World War 1, so he had every right to get rid of them! He was just fighting for the injustices of WW1 and we get all mad at him!



    Why? That's what they say about Bush and his remark about "going it alone" into Iraq.


    I am sorry, I guess I should cut you some slack because you seem to be living under some sort of rock. In case you didn't know, Bush went to the UN. Bush going it alone to destroy a evil dictator that starves his people and continues to develope WMD with the purpose of using them is in my mind very different that said dictator.


    The [white] minority seized that land through violence, why is it so shocking that the majority would take it back in the same fashion?


    I don't find it shocking, I find your support of the violence shocking. The people that are taking it back are only hurting themselves, they won't be able to use that land the way the white farmers did. Yea, starving people in the name of "justice" is a darn good idea.

  15. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Short of reciprocating your name-calling, I will say only that I feel that the land belongs to the indigenous African peoples, not to the colonials. They were taken by Force in the 1890's. The hatred in that region has dictated that it be taken back by force.

    Some less zenfull people might call it karma.

  16. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    You sir, are an idiot. It's not just you either, it is half of the people in this forum

    Coolguy, tone it down. That's not acceptable here. You know better than that.
  17. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    The white farmers occupying the land are citizens of Zimbabwe, as their parents have been. Are you justifying racial discrimination? Are you saying that the crimes of generations past are inherited by subsequent generations? Are you abandoning the millions of people employed by these farms to destitution, and the millions more that are fed by them to starvation? Are you maintaining that the actions of Mugabe and his roving mobs are instigated by impartial racial justice, and not by greed and incited (and illegitimate) racial and class hatred?

    If indeed 'Land Reform' is needed, the fact that you believe in that concept should not constrain you from criticising Mugabe, his undemocratic nature, the cronyism and thuggery that his Government represents, and the extreme damage that his methodology and timing of 'Land Refrom' causes.

    This is a microcosm of the thinking that has poisoned the Left over the past few decades. Sympathy and defense for totalitarian regimes and Banana Republics perpetrating acts of violence and tyrranny, while at the same time scorn and criticism for liberal democracies in the West. Calling you an idiot is perhaps unfair; racist (in that you seem to display characteristics of one unable to hold native Africans accountable for their actions, as if they were not rational people such as you or I) or misquided might be more accurate.


    http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old&section=back&issue=2001-12-29&id=1430&searchText=
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0819/p06s01-woaf.html
    http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1201137
  18. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Surprising, I've never been called a racist before.

    How did I suddnely become racist? I'm sure (and those who know me) would like to know.
  19. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    repost: racist (in that you seem to display characteristics of one unable to hold native Africans accountable for their actions, as if they were not rational people such as you or I)


    Blaming the violence in Zimbabwe on Colonialism, and not on the people in positions of authority and responsibility who are certainly guilty of executing (haha) these acts, shows a double standard. When the white-skinned people of the world commit crimes, there is a chorus of dissent directed at them. When the hutus and tutsies kill each other by the hundreds of thousands in the center of Africa, nary a twitter of criticism is heard.


    Yes, it is a semantic accusation, as I do not honestly think you hold specific people inferior, nor do I know you well enough to feel comfortable making such a claim. The thought process of many people, though exhibit these tendencies, and I think that the only proper designation of them is as 'racist'.


    EDIT: I think that I may have erred, and ascribed arguements to your position that you had not as of yet fully endorsed. It was probably wrong to personalise the debate prematurely.
  20. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    I'm beginning to lend more and more credibility to the concept that this world... this worldly society is shifting mindsets. Past human ineptitude is coming around to be revisited, but this generation sees it as unfair, rightly because it did not experience the transgressions of the past.

    However those who have lived beyond such travesties have within them the desire of their elders to right was had been wronged. These are not feelings that can be easily wiped away. It is a cycle of thought that imbeds itself into one's social upbringing.

    I've been reading the CNN reports about the arrests of farmers who defied government orders to leave their land. I have yet to see and report of violence during these seizures.

    As this is the issue we are discussing (and not general violence in the area), please
    post instances where violence erupted because of these land disputes.

    For future reference, it is cited that these farmers who have defied the order face a maximum 2 yrs in jail and an undisclosed amount in fines. No floggings, no executions mentioned as yet.
  21. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    From what I have seen:

    - Those who have refused to vacate their land when ordereddid so for 3 reasons: it's their land; they had made constitutional appeals; people are starving, and they wouldn't stop tending their fields before the big harvests in such a situation.

    - read the CSM and Economist articles above. both are 1st-class news sources for the world, and highly respected. there are scads of reports of violence and thuggery and arson out there, all you have to do is look.

    - as far as people being accountable for crimes of previous generations, I am searching for philosophical writing on that topic. I know that in the Judeo-Christian teachings, people are not accountable for the sins of their eldars or previous generations. And, empirically, what you suggest would denote that Jews and the people of Western Europe should at this moment be holding a lot of hostility towards Germany and Germans (yet this is not the case). Interesting thoughts, but my initial reaction is that the 'retribution impulses' which you conjecture are amoral and unjust, if they exist.
  22. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Red-Seven, as to your first statement: that they owned the land previously is not in dispute. What is in dispute is that the land was retaken by the government on the basis that it was not TAKEN by the colonists rightfully to begin with.

    As to your second statement: I'll continue to research the topic, but as yet have not found any violent actions regarding this land reform issue.
  23. Master-Aries Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2002
    star 1
    Hello All

    As I am the only person here in this particular forum closest to Zimbabwe, I thought it prudent to pass first hand knowledge in this rather heated discussion.

    Mugabe is in a very difficult situation, most of it through his own creation; his alliance with the now defunct war veterans is a ploy as this group has limited power and limited backing from the Army. The Army, which is not as entwined with the government as may think, as they are considered a separate unit, that has allied its self with other countries such as the DRC to protect their common interests.

    The obvious reason for the reclaiming of land is supposedly to distribute the land to the veterans, as they are small in number, they pose no immediate threat, they are as they were in the passed being used by the government to reclaim land not for agricultural use rather to sell to the highest bidder, mainly those in the African union. In return Mugabe has been promised protection from this Union from external interference.

    The question of starvation is grave but, surrounding Countries are stockpiling food aid destined for distribution, but first the local government and Army officials must take the slice of the pie and what ever is left distribute to the starving people, but if you enter Zimbabwe as have recently, they do not want food or money but any spare clothes or items you wish to depart with, they are more valuable than currency which is about 600 Zim dollars to one American dollar.

    My conclusion is this the people of Zimbabwe are confused as they have been indoctrinated with tales of the severe past of colonialism, which is not far from the truth but long dead, though British and other European influence still have the most dramatic effects, the produce that Zimbabwe exports is far below that what Zimbabwe should get for their produce, this has been a tactic of Empyreal England since it found Africa, buying Produce and reselling at exorbitant prices. Goods in Zimbabwe are 10 if not 20 times more expensive than in neighbouring countries.

    Mugabe in a warped since of the word, is trying to break this dependence on European nations, but I fear His tactics will destroy his country before freeing it, the collective corruption, is the root of all that Zimbabwe suffers.

    It is suffering that will set his people, only when they have suffered enough with they overthrow this corrupt government, that same event will happen in Iraq, but only if Americans and other more powerful nations leave the people to see for themselves the destructive tendencies of their oppressive governments have caused over the years.

    It is all relative but as Africa goes the people will endure as they have before, all I can say is this Americans and Europeans leave Africa alone or you will wake the sleeping giant, and you will see a mass civil war like never before, If you think Ruwanda was bad that is nothing to what will happen if external influences try to change and mould Africa.

    Sincerely

    Master Aries
    (MA)
  24. Master-Aries Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2002
    star 1
    Hello All

    As I am the only person here in this particular forum closest to Zimbabwe, I thought it prudent to pass first hand knowledge in this rather heated discussion.

    Mugabe is in a very difficult situation, most of it through his own creation; his alliance with the now defunct war veterans is a ploy as this group has limited power and limited backing from the Army. The Army, which is not as entwined with the government as may think, as they are considered a separate unit, that has allied its self with other countries such as the DRC to protect their common interests.

    The obvious reason for the reclaiming of land is supposedly to distribute the land to the veterans, as they are small in number, they pose no immediate threat, they are as they were in the passed being used by the government to reclaim land not for agricultural use rather to sell to the highest bidder, mainly those in the African union. In return Mugabe has been promised protection from this Union from external interference.

    The question of starvation is grave but, surrounding Countries are stockpiling food aid destined for distribution, but first the local government and Army officials must take the slice of the pie and what ever is left distribute to the starving people, but if you enter Zimbabwe as have recently, they do not want food or money but any spare clothes or items you wish to depart with, they are more valuable than currency which is about 600 Zim dollars to one American dollar.

    My conclusion is this the people of Zimbabwe are confused as they have been indoctrinated with tales of the severe past of colonialism, which is not far from the truth but long dead, though British and other European influence still have the most dramatic effects, the produce that Zimbabwe exports is far below that what Zimbabwe should get for their produce, this has been a tactic of Empyreal England since it found Africa, buying Produce and reselling at exorbitant prices. Goods in Zimbabwe are 10 if not 20 times more expensive than in neighbouring countries.

    Mugabe in a warped since of the word, is trying to break this dependence on European nations, but I fear His tactics will destroy his country before freeing it, the collective corruption, is the root of all that Zimbabwe suffers.

    It is suffering that will set his people, only when they have suffered enough with they overthrow this corrupt government, that same event will happen in Iraq, but only if Americans and other more powerful nations leave the people to see for themselves the destructive tendencies of their oppressive governments have caused over the years.

    It is all relative but as Africa goes the people will endure as they have before, all I can say is this Americans and Europeans leave Africa alone or you will wake the sleeping giant, and you will see a mass civil war like never before, If you think Ruwanda was bad that is nothing to what will happen if external influences try to change and mould Africa.

    Sincerely

    Master Aries
    (MA)
  25. Master-Aries Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2002
    star 1
    Apologies for the double posting I am unclear as to what happen, egregious apologies once again.

    Sincerely

    Master-Aries
    (MA)
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