main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Zimbabwe

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Bobavader, Sep 13, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Cheveyo

    Cheveyo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2001
    We are discussing an alleged theft that occured at least 100 years ago.

    alleged!?? Get real.

    Several of the farmers who have resisted have ended up dead.

    PPOR. The reports I have seen from news agencies indicate that farmers who did not willingly leave the land were arrested and charged, with a maximum penalty of 1 yr in prison and fines (of an undisclosed amount). I'd heard of no deaths related to this topic.


     
  2. JediSmuggler

    JediSmuggler Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 1999
    Cheveyo:

    You want proof:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/article/0,2763,669494,00.html

    "A white farmer was killed today in an escalation of post-election violence in Zimbabwe, as President Robert Mugabe prepared to meet the leaders of South Africa and Nigeria to discuss last week's disputed presidential elections.

    "Terry Ford became the 10th white farmer killed during a two-year campaign of intimidation and occupation of white-owned land when he was shot dead near his homestead while trying to escape an attack by settlers and war veterans."

    This is the Guardian we are talking about, by the way, this is NOT some flaming right-wing publication.

    Now, for your first point:

    It has NOT been proven that the land was stolen in a court of law. From my understanding all that has been done in Zimbabwe has been decrees from Mugabe (maybe rubber-stamped by the legislature in Zimbabwe) that have declared that the land is being redistributed. No mention of compensation for the farmers. No mention of giving the farmers a chance to present their case to a judge.

    Prove otherwise, and I'll retract my comments. Where are the verdicts? Were the farmers even given any chance to present their case beforer a fair and inpartial judge and jury, or is this a mere decree from Mugabe's government?

    It seems more like "you have something nice, I want it, I'll take it - and if you resist you end up dead or in a prison" that righting an old injustice. I think I will stand by my assertion that this is nothing more than state-sponsored armed robbery against people who are politically incorrect. If anything, I ought to add extortion and murder to the crimes that Mugabe is at the very least encouraging.
     
  3. Cheveyo

    Cheveyo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2001
    Thanks for the post, I'd been looking for such articles but had not seen any. However, these people were not killed by the government as a direct result of disobeying the government. Those who have been detained by the government are going through Zimbabwe's legal system.

    It has NOT been proven that the land was stolen...

    How, pray tell, did the white farmers come to acquire the lands... Lands that were until then occupied by the indigenous peoples?

    No mention of compensation for the farmers.

    True. And as I said, their relatives gave no compensation to the previous landholders.

    No mention of giving the farmers a chance to present their case to a judge.

    Again true. And again, the original landholders were not given such a "luxury", either.

    Are you suggesting, or even implying, that the land was taken and held rightfully by white farmers? You have a most peculiar (and disturbing) sense "rightness" if you do.
     
  4. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    You still haven't addressed the legal/philosophical point that you are holding future generations responsible legally (not just karmically or ironically, as you have previously argued, and doesn't o**** for much in nations under rule of law, which was a good thing last time I checked) for actions/results of previous generations.
     
  5. Cheveyo

    Cheveyo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2001
    You're correct, Red-Seven, I haven't addressed the legal perspective of it, nor did I say I ever would. That is not my place. I was pointing out the history and irony behind Mugabe's action... after that, everything hit the fan, and I've been defending my sense of the situation ever since. ;)
     
  6. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    Great. Let's start over, then.

    What Mugabe is doing is wrong, and the deliberate starvation of his country as a method of political consolodation is one of the most despicable acts since Pol Pot. I am shocked that there has not been more international attention, and doubly shocked that South Africa hasn't spoken out against it.
     
  7. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    ugh, no offence to anyone here, but a little bit of basic reseach would not go astray by most of you. Start for instance looking into some indepth accounts of Southern Africa in the 19th century. specifically what the ramifications were of the Zulu Mfcene (my spelling is rusty) for bllack tribal land ownership in what is now Zimbabwe, zambia, mozambique and botswana. Follow this with a look into first British, then Cape Province/Afrikaner colonial policies in Southern Africa in the period from about 1880 till about 1910, when the Union of South Africa occured. Then read some histories of Cecil Rhodes.......then if you are still interested go on to read some more about the development of Southern Rhodesia and the Central African Federation in the inter war period, and till the UDI in the 1960s........then after this you can go onto looking into the guerilla war of independence in the 1970s..followed by the peace negotiations of 1977-80.......

    after this run down you can then perhaps have a rational discussion of who is "to blame" amoung the current actors.......

    oh, and if anyone is interested I have about 2 years of archives from the MDC, the main zimbabwean opposition party...........
     
  8. POLUNIS

    POLUNIS Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Ender_Sai, I think you are wrong again. Where is all the international outcry against Mugabe's actions? I haven't heard of any. As a matter of fact, he is a darling of the United Despots; Colin Powell was on the receiving end of typical leftist venom, not Mugabe.

    Cheveyo = Incorrect on this point: violence does not solve anything. I think the testimony of history effectively refutes that naive assumption. Do you think the Axis would have been stopped in WWII, for example, by the Allies sitting on their hands? The fact of the matter is violence solved the Axis problem and many other problems. If the enemies are stripped of their power, then they cannot harm anyone else. Diplomacy has been unsuccessful by comparison. There is a reason Neville Chamberlain "got the sack".

    It would be nice if diplomacy was a panacea capable of curing all of the world's ills, but we have to reflect upon the reality we live with.
     
  9. POLUNIS

    POLUNIS Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    double post
     
  10. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Ender_Sai, I think you are wrong again.

    What, I've been wrong before?!? :p

    Where is all the international outcry against Mugabe's actions?

    Are you American by any chance? Try reading the Guardian, the BBC news, and you'll find plenty of stuff. Even here, in Oz, it's gotten a strong reaction. You know, being part of the Commonwealth and all, where we maybe tried to talk him out of it? Nope? Ok, moving on.. All I can see on CNN is "Bush vs Iraq" and "Beltway Sniper", like that's all the news that's fit to print.

    I haven't heard of any. As a matter of fact, he is a darling of the United Despots; Colin Powell was on the receiving end of typical leftist venom, not Mugabe.

    Riiiiiiiiiiight. ?[face_plain]
    Firstly, PPOR Mugabe is a UN Darling. Secondly, do your own research on the outcry. Just because you haven't heard it don't mean it ain't there, and I'm not going to find stuff for you. It's been all over the news here and in the UK.

    E_S
     
  11. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    The bloody UN Johannesburg summit saw Colin powell visciuosly booed when he criticized Mugabe's regime and actions. I believe that is what he is referring to.
     
  12. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Oh, right, and the attacks on Powell had nothing to do with US policy, it was all pro-Mugabe supporters? [face_laugh]

    Mugabe has been denounced by Australia and England, and I'm sure the other prominent Commonwealth nations - NZ and Canada - have said something too. If it ain't on the US news, though, the world MUST be pro-Mugabe.

    Hey, does that mean we dreamed Mugabe telling Blair to **** off? :eek: I thought Blair had a go at ol' Bobby Mugabs, and Mugabe told Blair "Sod off" (Note: Ender's translation). Mugabe is a cabron; it's still ironic though!

    I'm with you Cheveyo! Let's stick it to the eejits! :D

    E_S
     
  13. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    Yes. If you had bothered to read first-hand reports from the scene, it was *quite clear* that the most ferocious and concerted and coordinated section of anti-US chanting during Powells speech were in direct answer to his condemnation of Zimbabwe.

    These are your intellectual fellow-travelers.
     
  14. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    well its a key founding principle of the organisation of African Unity, and its successor the African Union that a nation's internal affairs are totally sacrosant......for good or for ill

    allafrica.com is a good african news website....it compiles lots of african news and magazine articles.....there are also several UN/Norwegian led african news indexes as well.if you want to get a different perspective than the commonwealth/american views.....
     
  15. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    So why didn't people chant during Tony Blair's speech that condemned Zimbabwe?

    E_S
     
  16. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999

    I never said they didn't boo anything else. I asserted that the loudest and most united condemnation came when Powell criticised Zimbabwe.

     
  17. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    blair was booed, as was Helen Clark (PM of NZ)
     
  18. Darth_Asabrush

    Darth_Asabrush Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2000
    I have friends from Zimbabwe (living in the UK and at home in Africa). With that in mind here is my opinion on the matter.

    Zimbabwe was one of the few African nations able to support itself with food and export goods to it's neighbours. This was due in part to the privately white owned farms. These people knew how to farm. However, Mugabe has decided to give the land back to the natives. On the surface this is a noble cause. However, we must ask ourselves why?

    Mugabe is a vicious dictator bent on remaining in power come what may. He has used anti-western sentiment amongst his supporters to further his cause. He has delibrately and violently taken over farms and teuned them in to wasteland. These farms have not been given back to the people but his cronies and friends. These farms are not being run by farmers but by people who just wish to own land.

    The black farm workers who knew how to work the land were targeted as well as the white farmers. Animals were killed (stoned to death) for the sake of killing and intimidating the supporters of the Opposition.

    Let me reiterate: This land is not being given back to the people. it is being given to Mugabe's cronies.

    When Mugabe came to power he asked the white settlers to remain saying Zimbabwe was as much their country as it was his. I have friends who are Zimbabwian as much as I am British. their grand parents were born there, their parents were born there, they were born there. Are they not native Zimbabwians? Do they not have the same rights as the Mugabe supporters?

    Shame on other African nations who have not intervened. I believe they have used this as a cheap political shot at the west.

    Shame on the British government for not doing more to keep this on the agenda.

    Shame on the EU for not supporting Britain and for doing too little too late.

    Shame on the west for turning a blind eye.
     
  19. POLUNIS

    POLUNIS Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Right on, Darth_Asabrush:D
     
  20. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    can't really dispute what DA said...........mugabe's rhetoric and the reality differ greatly
     
  21. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    ...and it is frustrating when others parrot his rhetoric, or smirkingly turn away from reality.
     
  22. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Like who, Red-Seven?

    E_S
     
  23. POLUNIS

    POLUNIS Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    I believe he is referring to Mugabe, Ender_Sai.
     
  24. Dead_AsaDoorNail

    Dead_AsaDoorNail Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2002
    And his African supporters.....

    Another thought: It would be impossible for Britain to take this issue on on its own because of our Imperial past - a weapon in Mugabe's arsenal.
     
  25. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    We're trying to get him expelled from the Commonwealth, D_A. Don't know if that'll matter much though... [face_plain]

    E_S
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.