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Zimbabwe

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Bobavader, Sep 13, 2002.

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  1. Dead_AsaDoorNail

    Dead_AsaDoorNail Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2002
    Zimbabwe will not get expelled from The Commonwealth. It may get suspended but just look at Pakistan. It was suspended (not sure if it still is) and has a better relationship with the West now because of 9/11.

    Mugabe still has supporters in Africa who all have a say in whether Mugabe's Zimbabwe remains in The Commonwealth and as long as these African nations insist on deliberately making life easy for Mugabe I believe nothing will happen. Just look at the election observers!

     
  2. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    why the hell do you all keep referring to britain here? like its britain's responsibility to act above all others?
     
  3. Dead_AsaDoorNail

    Dead_AsaDoorNail Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2002
    I think because the UK has historic and cultural ties with Zimbabwe greater than any other western or foreign power.

    Most of the white settlers have British ancestry. Many also hold British passports as well as Zimbabwian.

    And Mugabe himself is using anti British rhetoric as a main weapon in remaining in (corrupt) power due to upr Imperial past and the fact that Zimbabwe is a former colony.

    Also the UK is one of the "powers" within The Commonwealth.
     
  4. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    well, my problem with the whole "britain as colonial master" angle is that it is too far removed........as i have pointed out several times before Britain has only ever ruled rhodesia/zimbabwe directly for the shortest of periods....in 1980 with the handover of power from the white settler UDI regime to Mugabe, and i think for a period in 1896 during a revolt...........the rest of this time the settlers or the British SOuth African Company, a private company ruled the territory.......this is pretty unique, its sorta similiar to what happened in India with the East India Company, but then from an early period the settlers had self rule, identical for all intents and purposes to what Canada, NZ, Australia, and South Africa had except that Rhodesia was not a Dominion......

    these settlers ruled themselves via a elected westminister style parliament for at least 60 years, with the theoretical reserve power of britian as the colonial power. this british veto, like in all of the settler nations was just that, theoretical, after self rule was gained, any time britain tried to exert what was seen locally as undue influence on local affairs the power evaporated........and in rhodesia's case that happened in 1965, when the white settlers declared Independence.....

    If you are looking for someone to blame, blame South Africa.......the settlers who conquored Rhodesia back in the early 1890s were mostly south african farmers, industrialists, financiers and such, sure they did it for Britain, but there was a strong south african imperialism going on there.......just like for example like what Australia and NZ did in the SOuth Pacific and PNG in the late 19th to mid 20th centuries......

    the new colony of rhodesia was a toy of Rhodes, a south african tycoon, and its laws and institutions were based on South african models, and throughout its economic life it was totally dominated by South Africa......after WW2, when Britain began freeing the African colonies, the two white settler states of SA and rhodesia became isolated politically and economically from Britain and the West. After UDI in the 1960s Rhodesia became totally dependant on the goodwill of the SOuth Africans, who controlled all the transport routes (after Mozambique became independant in 1975), SA even provided thousands of police and soldiers to prop up the UDI regime, as well as military supplies and intelligence.


    In fact it wasn't till the SOuth African government decided to try and woo the Black Frontline states in the late 1970s that Rhodesia looked like it would collapse. SA withdrew most of its forces, and put economic pressure on Rhodesia forcing it to negotiate with the Black guerillas........
     
  5. Dead_AsaDoorNail

    Dead_AsaDoorNail Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Oct 2, 2002
    Correct. However, the majority of settlers were British. Add that to Britain's status as THE Imperial power of the day and you get the perception that it is the UK's problem. Something Mugabe utilises very well.
     
  6. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    ahh but mugabe of course knows different, the people i am concerned about his audience
     
  7. Dead_AsaDoorNail

    Dead_AsaDoorNail Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Oct 2, 2002
    Me too. I fear nothing will be done until the old geezer pops his cloggs!
     
  8. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Jun 12, 1999
    little update............http://allafrica.com/stories/200211070473.html

    basically the US dep Sec of State for Africa said that the US might consider more invasive direct methods of aid delivery if Mugabe continues to withold food aid from his political opponents........which apparently has sparked an invasion scare among the Government hierachy.........
     
  9. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    Cheers for the link. I am skeptical that the US would actually commit significant resource and political capital towards an interventionist policy in Zimbabwe...but I think it is also possible that if Zimbabwe believes it is a legitimate possibility, that it could prompt a small measure of self-reform. Interesting.
     
  10. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    well, we can but hope.............i am thinking they would merely take aid delivery out of government led distribution and into private NGO hands
     
  11. Darth_Asabrush

    Darth_Asabrush Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2000
    Well, should the England cricket team play in Zimbabwe?

    I don't think so!!!

    Edit: Cricket and Zimbabwe
     
  12. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    I can't help but wonder how things would be different if Margaret Thatcher were still in power.

    Taking the precedent of the Falklands, and her general attitude to foreign policy (which I've gleaned from her latest book, 'Statecraft,' which is a BRILLIANT read, despite the fact I disagree with her on every single issue there is to disagree with), I tend to think she would be a lot more robust about the Zimbabwe situation. I doubt she would have used force or anything as drastic as that, but she would likely be kicking up a storm and be pressing like crazy to have sanctions enforced against Zimbabwe, and have it removed from the Commonwealth.

    The biggest problem is that, while Britain is made out to be the enemy, and Britain is the Western country which stands to lose the most from Mugabe (in regards to foreign nationals and the economy), we are the ones who are most prevented from doing anything about it. If we were to try and use force against him, we'd be accused of imperialism: besides, it would just seem so STUPID - I mean, his entire consolidation of power is based upon British imperialism and its results, so it would be a PR disaster if Britain was the one to try and disarm him.

    - Scarlet.
     
  13. DarthKarde

    DarthKarde Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2002
    I'm sure that Margaret Thatcher would have convinced the EU to impose stronger sanction from a much earlier date and convinced the Commonwealth to act sooner. Tony Blair did not push the issue too strongly because he wasn't willing to invest much political capital in it.

    Another point that has received little attention is that many of Zimbabwe's neighbouring countries have relied heavily on food imports from Zimbabwe for many years. These countries are now suffering from Mugabe's actions yet their leaders are his strongest supporters, outside of Zimbabwe.
     
  14. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    Yes, I find that worrying and bizarre, as well.

    From the start, I have criticised South Africa's implicit role in this affair, and the close relations between Mugabe's top thugs and the SA govt. is filling me with increasing pessimism.

    In a perfect situation, I would have liked to see a bit more pressure from the US on this matter; as it was, we managed to get booed in Johannesburg, for daring to criticise what was happening. However, getting back to political capital...that's certainly one thing that has been at a premium, and used elsewhere in the world for the last two years.

    Interestingly, the EU is in the best position to affect change in this matter. I really don't know how they can support Civil Society in Zimbabwe, and help restore openness in politics, journalism and voting down there, if Mugabe & Cru are intent on continuing their policies to crush dissent.


    Hey, good news is that Moi is out of Kenya. Perhaps Kibaki will have success reducing the amount of corruption in that country...


    Edit: prevents international incident
     
  15. DarthKarde

    DarthKarde Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 28, 2002
    Hey, good news is that Moi is out of Kenya. Perhaps Mebeki will have success reducing the amount of corruption in that country...

    I take it that you hope President Kibaki of Kenya can make a difference in his country as opposed to President Mebeki of South Africa interfering in Kenya's internal affairs ;)

    From the start, I have criticised South Africa's implicit role in this affair, and the close relations between Mugabe's top thugs and the SA govt. is filling me with increasing pessimism.

    We all know that Nelson Mandela was a great man but ANC has always contained more than it's fair share of unsavoury charachters and many of them including Mebeki are of a similar ilk to Mugabe and agree with what he is doing. They are running South Africa into the ground, their rule is based on ignorance and fear. The last I heard and I don't think this has changed it was the official policy of the South African government that HIV and AIDS have no connection.
     
  16. DarthKarde

    DarthKarde Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2002
  17. JediSmuggler

    JediSmuggler Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 1999
    If Mugabe is doing that sort of thing, then the question must be asked: What should be done about it?
     
  18. DarthKarde

    DarthKarde Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2002
    The opposition party (MDC) mayor of Harare has been arrested for holding a political rally without permission. Forthermore the government intends to appoint governers for Harare and Bulawayo because both cities have mayors from the MDC.

    Harare mayor to face charges
     
  19. Darth_Asabrush

    Darth_Asabrush Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2000
    I read on the BBC website that two senior members of Zanu PF had approached the opposition regarding a power sharing deal.

    There seems to be a lot of doubt within the ruling party as to who will succeed Mugabe.

    There is also talk of allowing Mugabe to retire and not face charges etc...
     
  20. DarthKarde

    DarthKarde Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2002
    I saw that article as well but I doubt that Mugabe will go quietly. His kind very rarely do.
     
  21. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    Why is there suddenly talk of him leaving? Have I missed some sort of development? Where is the new pressure coming from, that is changing the equation?

    Mugabe Exit plan 'wishful thinking'
    Reports that senior officials are making plans for President Robert Mugabe's departure have been denied by Zimbabwe's ruling Zanu-PF party.
    Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai had told the BBC he had been approached with an offer of talks from two of the most powerful figures in the ruling Zanu-PF party.

    He said, Parliamentary speaker Emmerson Mnangagwa and General Vitalis Zvinavashe, head of the armed forces, had wanted to discuss the possibility of forming a power-sharing government.

    But Zanu-PF's spokesman Nathan Shamuyarira dismissed the alleged plans for Mr Mugabe's departure - also published in Britain's Times newspaper - as "wishful thinking".

    "The British would like to see that happening but it is not going to happen," he told a news conference.

    The BBC southern Africa correspondent Barnaby Phillips says talks would be consistent with proposals put forward by African negotiators working to resolve the crisis in Zimbabwe.
     
  22. DarthKarde

    DarthKarde Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Why is there suddenly talk of him leaving? Have I missed some sort of development? Where is the new pressure coming from, that is changing the equation?

    There have not been any major developments but there are surely some people fairly high up in Zanu-PF that can see what Mugabe is doing to Zimbabwe. Last night in the UK there was a TV documentary shown, made by the journalist who wrote the magazine article that I provided a link to last friday. It was astonishing to see the state that a once relatively prosperous country had been reduced to. Mugabe has cut off all food suplies to areas of the country that voted against him in last years election. People are eating nuts, leaves and in some cases the bark off trees.
     
  23. JediSmuggler

    JediSmuggler Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 1999
    DarthKarde:

    Hunger as a weapon...

    He will either starve his opponents to death or into submission.

    Makes you wonder whether colonialism was such a bad thing after all.
     
  24. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    "Makes you wonder whether colonialism was such a bad thing after all."


    What is that supposed to mean?
     
  25. DarthKarde

    DarthKarde Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2002
    "Makes you wonder whether colonialism was such a bad thing after all."

    Since it was colonialism that created Mugabe I fail to see how you can come to such a conclusion.
     
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