Zimbabwe

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Bobavader, Sep 13, 2002.

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  1. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    It is fashionable to claim that colonialism is all bad. I'm sure there were benefits. I'll dig up an article I read the other day in the Times about this.
  2. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    I will clarify my position. I'm not claiming that colonialism was completely bad, it clearly had positive aspects and many countries are benefiting today from a colonial past. I was just argueing against endorsing colonialism on the basis that a despot is currently running Zimbabwe is extremely misguided given that he would not be in power had it not been for colonialism.
  3. AdmiralZaarin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 5
    Mugabe would not have lasted long at all were he a British governor. The Brits would've looked into why so many of their Rhodesian subjects were dropping dead. Less colonists means less export, money, soldiers etc for mother Britain. When they discovered the governor's policy was to blame for this issue, he'd be fired. Colonialism isn't all that bad. It had its low points, mostly in the immediate actions of settlers (for example, the French built a town on sacred graveyards, even though a Natchez Indian chief had told them so, and asked that they didn't, The Natchez burnt this town to the ground. France sent her army and within a year the entire Natchez tribe was wiped out)

    Colonialism as a whole isn't to blame. The ignorance of the colonists and the fact half of them were armed and trigger happy is more to blame.
  4. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
  5. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    It's all down to European politics and has nothing to do with France's views on Mugabe. A whole host of issues have damaged the relationship between Britain and France.
  6. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    Yeah I know that, but the reason for the deal is that it would be highly embarressing to the French if the summit was a flop due to the withdrawl of other African nations because of the ban on Mugabe - hence the deal.

    I strongly believe that the EU governments are trading on morals.
  7. Moylesy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2001
    star 4
    Correspondents say that France sees itself as Africa's best friend on the international stage.

    No surprise there then.. "money above morals" seems to be what the French are all about.
  8. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    on this note i have a book that was written in the late 1960s by a rhodesian parliamentarian, incidently not from the Rhodesian Front ruling party (led by Ian Smith)....it is called Rhodesia Responds......and it makes the case for the Unilateral Declaration of Independence........basically says that why should the white rhodesians let majority rule occur when most of the newly independant african states had collapsed into chaos/one man rule/military coups etc.......aside from the odd overtly racist comment it is a compelling read....
  9. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    Humble, there is always this underlying fear in the UK that if you critise a black African leadership many people will shout "RACIST" even if you argue re: dictatorship, corruption, torture and intimidation.
  10. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    "A whole host of issues have damaged the relationship between Britain and France."

    Yeah, kicking their ass for a thousand years tends to have that effect.

    ""money above morals" seems to be what the French are all about."

    LOL that is so true! This is, after all, the nation that gives French citizenship to African sportsmen so that they'll play for France.

    As for Zimbabwe... Mugabe should be put down for the dog that he is. This is a man who's so clever that he's turned one of the most economically successful countries of Africa into one of its poorest. All to satisfy his racism.
  11. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    More bad news on Zimbabwe
    AS THE trial for alleged treason began on February 3rd of Morgan Tsvangirai, the leader of Zimbabwe?s main opposition group, Movement for Democratic Change (MDC), baton-wielding police stopped diplomats and journalists (other than those from state-run media) from entering the courthouse to witness the hearing. However, Mr Tsvangirai?s lawyers quickly won a ruling from the judge that the independent observers be admitted. The MDC leader and the two senior party officials standing trial alongside him deny charges that they plotted to assassinate President Robert Mugabe, as they are supposed to have admitted in a videotape that forms a key part of the prosecution case. If found guilty, they face being hanged.

    Perhaps the heavy-handed attempts to keep the trial hidden from the outside world were due to a belated realisation that it would give Mr Tsvangirai a platform from which to criticise the Zimbabwean government?s human-rights abuses, just as the foreign press (most of which Mr Mugabe banned from the country last year) was about to arrive to cover a controversial series of World Cup cricket matches. Mr Mugabe could do without more bad press at the moment, given that the European Union will shortly decide whether to maintain the sanctions imposed on his regime last year, and the Commonwealth will consider whether to restore Zimbabwe?s membership, suspended last March, or to expel it.

    Some of the cricket matches are now in doubt: on February 6th, the committee managing the World Cup will consider the England cricket board's call for its match against Zimbabwe on the 13th to be moved elsewhere. Australia's government also wants its team's match, on the 24th, to be moved but the country's players and their managers have decided to ignore safety worries and play in Zimbabwe.

    Britain, the former colonial ruler of Zimbabwe, is angry that France has invited Mr Mugabe to a Franco-African summit later this month, and that Portugal has invited him to a Euro-African gathering in April. A compromise deal is said to be under discussion, in which Britain would accept Mr Mugabe?s presence at the Paris summit in return for France?s backing for a renewal of the EU sanctions against him. The summit in Portugal may be cancelled.

    The authorities? case against Mr Tsvangirai and his colleagues rests mainly on a blurry videotape, secretly recorded by a Canadian public-relations firm run by Ari Ben-Menashe, a former Israeli secret agent, which was working for the Mugabe government. The tape was recorded a few months before last March?s violent and, it is widely believed, rigged elections, which Mr Mugabe ?won?. The tape purports to show Mr Tsvangirai discussing a possible plot to kill the president, though an unedited extract played in court this week was much less incriminating than a heavily edited version that had earlier been shown on television worldwide.

    Mr Tsvangirai has a strong defence team, including George Bizos, a South African lawyer who defended Nelson Mandela when the apartheid government put him on trial in 1963-64. Persuading the judge to admit foreign diplomats and media is a coup for the defence, but it has already suffered a setback, failing to convince a British businessman to go to Zimbabwe and give evidence it hopes could clear the defendants. In an interview with the London Daily Telegraph last year, Rupert Johnson, a commodity broker, said he had been present at all three meetings that Mr Tsvangirai and his colleagues had with Mr Ben-Menashe, and that the question of assassinating Mr Mugabe had never been raised. Now, however, Mr Johnson is refusing to give evidence. He will not say why.

    The trial comes as Mr Mugabe?s 23-year grip on power is looking shakier than ever. About half of the country?s 13m people are facing starvation as agricultural output collapses due to the government?s land ?reform? programme, in which white farmers have been driven off the land with threats of vio
  12. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    Two Zimbabwean cricketers defied Mugabe yesterday by wearing black armbands during their opening world cup match. Andy Flower and Henry Olonga, Zimbabwe's first balck player, said that the armbands mourned the "hunger, toture and death of democracy" in Zimbabwe. They also released the following statement before the game.

    We have decieded we will each wear a black armband for the duraction of the World Cup.

    We are making a silent plea to those responsible to stop the abuse of human rights in Zimbabwe.

    We cannot take to the field and ignore the fact that millions of our compatriots are starving, unemployed and oppressed.

    We are aware hundreds of thousands of Zimbabweans may even die in the comming months through starvation, poverty and Aids.

    We are aware that many people have been unjustly imprisoned and tortured simply for expressing their opinions about what is happening in the country.

    We are aware that people have been murdered, raped, beaten and had their homes destroyed because of their beliefs and that many of those responsible have not been prosecuted.


    Their brave actions should be applauded but the Zimbabwe Cricket Union have said that they may take action against the two and even more shamefully the Internation Cricket Council may also issue disripute charges against them.
  13. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Bravo for dissent, especially in the face of censure and personal harm.
  14. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    there was a very small crowd at that match......possibly a statement on things.......

    on another point, i thought we all decided in the 1980s that minority regimes in sub saharan africa that oppress the majority and govern illegally should be ostracised in international spots
  15. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Mugabe Arrives in Paris
    Mr Mugabe is in Paris to take part in a Franco-African summit despite European Union sanctions against him. His arrival has prompted protests from Britain and other EU countries, after France obtained a waiver to allow Mr Mugabe to enter Europe as sanctions were formally extended for a further year on Tuesday.

    He will join around 45 other African heads of state, Jacques Chirac, the French president, and Kofi Annan, the UN secretary general, as part of French attempts to forge closer ties with Africa.

    ...France has no history of attempting to prosecute foreign leaders, and Mr Chirac has fought hard to ensure the leader of Zimbabwe is present for the meeting.

    He risked the fury of fellow EU leaders by insisting on a visit, despite a ban on all travel within the EU for Mr Mugabe and leaders of his regime. The concession to France still rankles with Tony Blair but Mr Chirac feared other African leaders would boycott the summit if Mr Mugabe was kept out.

    The French president also claims it will do more good to engage with the Zimbabwe regime, particularly at a summit discussing international human rights.




    Cricket makes protest
    IT MUST be considered the most courageous gesture in the history of sport. Yesterday, Andrew Flower and Henry Olonga took the field for Zimbabwe in their opening World Cup match against Namibia each wearing a black armband. ?We are mourning the death of democracy in our beloved Zimbabwe,? they said in a joint statement.

    ?We cannot in good conscience take the field and ignore the fact that millions of our compatriots are starving, unemployed and oppressed,? said the most telling sentence of their soberly phrased ? the more damning for that ? condemnation of President Robert Mugabe?s Zimbabwe.

    It is a simple document, and its timing is shattering to Mr Mugabe. Tyrants love big sporting events. Examples include Adolf Hitler, the Argentine military dictatorship and the Soviet empire. A sporting event is a public relations coup that conveys the message to all, at home and abroad, that everything is All Right, that the country in question is Doing Well.

    Mr Mugabe was looking forward to this World Cup. It was going to show everybody that Zimbabwe was Just Fine. There can?t be anything wrong with a country that can hold big-time cricket matches, can there? But, in a moment of simple sincerity and bravery, of the sort that is beyond most politicians, two cricketers turned all this on its head. Zimbabwe?s participation in the World Cup now tells the world that Zimbabwe is not so much All Right as All Wrong. Every run scored, every wicket taken, is now a blow against Mr Mugabe. The tyrant?s weapons have been turned against him.

    The only similar event in sporting history is the Black Power protest on the medal podium of the Olympic Games of 1968, in which the US sprinters Tommie Smith and John Carlos showed their reservations about the country they were representing with clenched fist salutes. Their immediate reward was ostracism from their sport.
  16. Az-Azzameen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    Mugabe has directly contributed to the humanitarian disaster that is occuring in Zimbabwe. His economic policies and farm polices (invert racism if you like [face_plain] ) have critically reduced crop production, and its nothing to do with his excuse of 'poor rains'.

    It saddens me to see the international community continuing to fret about Iraq and Saddam, when this is happening right in front of our eyes. :(
  17. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    Mugabe has directly contributed to the humanitarian disaster that is occuring in Zimbabwe.

    Sorry but this is wrong. The words 'contributed to' need to be replaced with the word caused.
  18. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    Following an opposition organised two day general strike last week the Zimbabwean government have been engaging in an even more brutal than usual crack down on opposition members and supporters.

    'Brutal' Zimbabwe crackdown
  19. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    There are signs that Zimbabwe's neighbours are finally going to to take some sort of action against Mugabe. Sothern Africa's regional body is sending a team to Zimbabwe to investigate allegations of political violence. Hopefully this is a genuine move and not just a whitewash.

    Mugabe under regional spotlight
  20. TheScarletBanner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    The faster Mugabe and his government are removed from Zimbabwe, the better the state of that country, that continent and the world in general will be.

    I only find it scandalous that the world can so collectively ignore it, on the basis that oppression of whites and those who support them is not as bad as the reversal.

    - Scarlet.
  21. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    I hope it is good news, DK. Unfortuneately, the recent track record of the neighbours, especially SA, have not instilled confidence in me. They legitimised Mugabe's election, which was the beginning of the rapid decline of the country.
  22. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    I share your sceptical outlook 7, as you say South Africa in particular have legitimised Mugabe and there support is essential to him. Given the support shown by the people of Zimbabwe to the ANC when they were fighting a tyrannical regime the failiure of South Africa to oppose Mugabe is an utter betrayal of the Zimababwean people.
  23. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    its a long standing principle in post colonial African international relations not to interfere with other countries, if they are "independant" i think the theory is that there are so many border issues that it would never end once it got started
  24. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    No one wants South Africa to interfere in Zimbabwe, we just want them to end their support for Mugabe's appauling regime.
  25. Az-Azzameen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    ON humanitarian grounds (as indeed most are 'justifying' the Iraq campaign - in the absence of WMD thus far), should we look forward to some consistent world action in Zimbabwe. Isn't he as much a monster as Mr Hussein (is/was :p)?

    It was reported last week that Mugabe supporters were using male rape as a weapon against dissenters and opposition.

    [face_plain]
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