Zimbabwe

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Bobavader, Sep 13, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Well, Zimbabwe isn't a threat for weapons proliferation.

    They certainly can be a destabilising force regionally, which means that the World community (ie US, England, EU, UN, in that order) should support South Africa as the regional power/influence in a manner to mediate/fix the situation. This dovetails with South Africa's view that they are the influential nation in the region, and other bodies shouldn't be interposing themselves.

    However, if South Africa continues to refrain from wielding influence to alter the horrid situation, the World Community should probably get more involved, in stages (sanctions, opposition support, perhaps even peacekeepers/military action). We are a LONG way from any intrusive measures, though.



  2. Az-Azzameen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    Sanctions would only hurt the already suffering people IMO. Mugabe and his cronies will still get their share, no worries. :(

  3. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    I'm inclined to agree, even if sanctions were 'targetted' at areas designed to hurt Mugabe's rule (usually the easiest to defeat via black market smuggling).

    How many times have Sanctions worked, anyhow? Was it sanctions, or internal pressure, that brought down South Africa?
  4. Az-Azzameen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    Its a difficult situation for sure, any attempts by the international community to intervene will be decried as an infringement on Mugabe's sovereignty, no doubt. :(

  5. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Zimbabwe sanctions 'have failed'

    Secretary General Don McKinnon told Reuters news agency that Mr Mugabe has not adopted political reforms despite Zimbabwe's suspension from the grouping of former British colonies.

    Earlier this week, the United States official responsible for African policy, Walter Kansteiner, also said that sanctions had failed and urged Zimbabwe's neighbours to increase pressure on Mr Mugabe.

    Three African leaders are due to go to Harare to meet Mr Mugabe next week, amid intense speculation that they will urge him to step down.

    The Zimbabwe economy is in a severe recession, with unemployment at over 50% and inflation estimated at 228%.

    The opposition blames Mr Mugabe's economic policy, while he says he is the victim of a western plot against him because of his redistribution of land from white to black farmers.

    In a report published on Friday, campaign group Amnesty International said Zimbabwe's government had "introduced national legislation to silence criticism and opposition, perpetrate human rights violations and place the basic rights of the Zimbabwean people under siege".
  6. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    Some good news here, it seems that some elements of a democratic society are still in evidence in Zimbabwe. The supreme court has ruled that parts of a new media law are unconstitutional and invalid.

    Zimbabwe media law struck down
  7. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    I wonder why Zimbabwe has garnered its own thread on these forums....
  8. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    I wonder why Zimbabwe has garnered its own thread on these forums....

    In Britain there has been a great deal of interest in the political situation in Zimbabwe for the last 2-3 years. It is deeply disturbing to see a democratic and potentially wealthy and successful African nation be plunged into the desperate situation that the country now finds itself in due to the despot who has hijacked democracy and is running the country into ruin.
  9. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    "I wonder why Zimbabwe has garnered its own thread on these forums...."

    Care to expand upon that?
  10. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    Zimbabwe has (or had) very close links with the UK. Most white citizens of Zimbabwe have British blood in them somewhere down the line.

    There is great interest and despair about an African nation that was a model for others in the region now being destroyed from the inside due to corruption and racism by the powerful elite.

    That is why there is thread about it here!
  11. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    South African Foreign Policy
    "Zimbabwe will be a crucial test of Mr Mbeki's doctrine. A senior South African official, who observed some of the talks in Harare, insists that Mr Mbeki is becoming more involved, and even believes that a tiny bit of progress was made. Mr Mugabe tried to stop the visiting presidents from seeing Mr Tsvangirai, but was overruled. Mr Tsvangirai still will not recognise Mr Mugabe as president, but agreed to accept him as the country's de facto leader.

    Until now, Mr Mbeki has preferred to deal with his neighbour with ?quiet diplomacy?, a euphemism for inaction. But with some signs of success in Burundi and Congo, he may be bracing himself for more vigorous action in Zimbabwe, pushing at least for talks. That will be the day."



    I hope that South Africa shows a little backbone, and helps bring about a transition over time in Zimbabwe. They have the most influence in that country...far more than the US or UK.
  12. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    President Mbeki has been forced to change his policy towards Zimbabwe because he has finally come under pressure at home about it. Following the crack-down on opposition figures in Zimbabwe during and after the recent strike the South African trade unions have spoken up in support of their Zimbabwean colleagues and have been critical of Mbeki's lack of action.
  13. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    speaking of sanctions and zimbabwe, i just wrote an assignment on this very topic last night.....i mainly looked at the sanctions regime centered on Rhodesia, what is now Zimbabwe.........
    basically after they declared independence in 1965 they were subjected to a world wide comprehensive economic sanctions regime........now some countries tacitly ignored it, like SOuth Africa, Portugal to 1975, and Malawi, but the interesting thing is, that while these sanctions lasted 15 years, they are not the reason why the white regime fell......it fell because the portuguse colonies of angola and especially mozambique were decolonised in 1975, which vastly escelated the guerrilla war, nearly surrounding rhodesia in enemies......

    economic sanctions are pretty inprecise tools, historically, as they are usualyl based on the "economic devastation" theory. Where the sanctions devestate a country, causing internal political change.....

    the current zimbabwe sanctions are a little more precise, aimed at leadership more than the economy, however i am still skeptical
  14. Az-Azzameen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    I agree with the previous sentiments. RSA (the country not our esteemed Mods :p) has a function as the influence in that part of the world. However, I can't help feeling somewhat disappointed that Europe isn't do more to voice its disapproval against Mugabe and his odious regime. Perhaps Africa as a whole, is just not as 'important' as the Middle East. [face_plain]

    As to why this has a thread of its own? Well, the other respondents have answered well enough, but for me it is especially poignant as my mother's side of the family have roots in the colonial state of Rhodesia.
  15. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    interesting, when did your family leave rhodesia/zimbabwe?
  16. Az-Azzameen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    Not entirely sure. Shortly before the Second World War I think in the mid 30s, as I remember my grandfather, as a child, was evacuated from London to Wales as well.
  17. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    an interesting period that, they wanted more white settlers, but they didn't want poor ones........a constant dilemna in the colonies, poor whites were almost as bad as no whites, and in the depression era, pretty much the only whites who wanted to migrate to africa would be poor........i think there was a furious exchange between the commonwealth states at the time on this issue.....
  18. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    recently the zimbabwean gov't expelled a british reporter, even after the court ruled the expulsion order illegal.......the government basically gave teh finger to the courts.....

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/subsectionmenu/0,5667,960624,00.html
  19. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Activist calls for Mugabe ouster
    ...The Irish pop star called on African leaders to challenge despots if they wanted the rest of the world to take them seriously.

    ?He (Mr Mugabe) is engaging in state-sponsored terror and famine and that cannot be allowed,? Geldof said. ?He is a shame on the face of Africa.?

    Geldof, on his first official trip to Ethiopia since the days of Live Aid in 1985, added: ?You people should be demanding that Mugabe steps down. I don?t care where he goes. He can join Idi Amin in Saudi Arabia, he can join the ghetto of tyrants, but get him out of there.?







    I'm also wondering when a JC thread on the appalling situation in DRC will finally arrive...
  20. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    too complex IMO........at least with zimb you got an educated population, infrastructure, some form of government, unreasonable as it is.....the DRC is just a mess, always has been, first the belgians, then mobutu, now the civil war..........they should just split the country into 3-4 states and see if that works.......
  21. Az-Azzameen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    Gotta love Sir Bob. Although its a bit hard to take what he says there seriously when you consider he spawned with Paula Yates. :p

    Quite frankly, it seems that the West per se, is not actually interested or committed to 'doing' anything in Zimbabwe, aside from offering part time advice to the ECB. [face_plain]
  22. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
  23. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    This may actually be a case where a force sent in to get rid of Mugabee might be welcome by the people of Africa. But it won't happen. Too costly, no benifits for those who would send in the forces. And no Muslim boogymen.
  24. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Wow, your position on sovereignty rights and non-aggression has certainly changed. [face_plain]
  25. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    I'm not completely pacifist. I just don't believe in sending in an invasion force when the people of that country don't even want you there, or for ulterior motives or false reasons, or if it would just increase hatred.

    I think the people of Zimbabwe would have welcomed some help. If thats the case, if the people of Zimbabwe overwhelmingly support a rebelion against Mugabee, then an invasion force would be much more tolerable. Especially if there aren't any politicians going "we're going to wipe out threats against us that don't exist!".
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.