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Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Bobavader, Sep 13, 2002.

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  1. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 21, 2002
    "...people don't want you there, or to increase hatred..."

    hmmm. does such a country even exist in the world?

    You do know that The ZANU party in Zimbabwe is thousands of people strong, and would probaly fight to the death to defend Mugabe?

    It is also no secret that Mugabe has no love lost for Tony Blair. Any action connected to Blair would result in some resentment in Zimbabwe.

    But I can clearly see how one would support military action in Zimbabwe, while decrying military action in Iraq. hrm...
  2. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Jun 12, 1999
    traditionally ZANU-PF has been based in the mashona tribe/group that forms the majority of the population of zimbabwe....their strength has been particularly focused in the rural peasantry..where the original guerillas were based and supported from during the liberation war.......
    now the support of this group was one of the main reasons mugabe began his land seizures campaign.....when economic decline hit in the late 90s the peasants began to get angry with the slow pace of reform, especially given most of the redistributed land to that point had been corruptly dealt with, going to government officals not landless peasants.........this situation has now been repeated, with little gain to the landless mashona peasant.......and now with the drought, the collapse in rural infrastructure there is the prospect of famine...........this will alienate alot of mugabe's former supporters...

    The south (this inc bulwayo)has been dominated by the ndebele tribal grouping since the mid 19th century, who were the pre European rulers of much of what is now these people have never liked ZANU, during the liberation war they supported a mainly Ndebele guerilla group which was either ZIPRA or ZANLA, iforget.....then after the 1980 elections which gave Mugabe power this group was both repressed and co-opted into the ZANU ruling party.....further during the early-mid 80s the Army was sent into the Ndebele rural areas and basically went on a murderous there is little love for mugabe or ZANU there....

    the urban centres have like many places in the developing world massively expanded in the latter part of the 20th century.....based upon zimbabwe's historically strong industrial sector a large black working class formed.....which has largely been wiped out due to the ongoing economic collapse, which is seen to be the fault of ZANU-PF and Mugabe....these people form the bedrock of the MDC opposition...along with the educated urban middle classes, of which Zimbabwe has many, they had the largest tertiary educated black population on independence of any sub saharan state (i don't include South Africa here)....and to mugabe's credit, he significantly increased their numbers with the expansion of education after Independence.
  3. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 21, 2002
    Humble, I missed your point in the context of this discussion. Are you saying that a foreign army would have an easy time occupying Zimbabwe?

    I think that the differences between Mugabe's Afircan National Union(ZANU), and Nkomo's African People's Union(ZAPU) fall more along ideological lines,than geographical location.

    During the conflict, ZAPU and the Ndebele were organized under the Soviet model, which focused on industrial strength, and ZANU, with the Shona, were organized under the Chinese view of agricultural cooperation.

    I don't think the ordinary citizen of Zimbabwe cared who was running the country, as long as he was able to feed his family.

    Any foreign military power would still have to affect a regime change. Some of the people would support this action, some would resist it, and most of the people would continue on with their lives.
  4. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 21, 1999
    [link=]Warning Shots[/link]
    [blockquote]...Since Mr Mugabe stole a presidential election last year, the opposition has tried various means to unseat him. It has mounted a legal challenge to his ?victory?, but the hearings have been delayed. It has put out feelers for negotiations with the ruling party, which South Africa is keen to broker, but little progress has been made. As a precondition for talks, ZANU-PF insists that the MDC should recognise Mr Mugabe as a legitimate president, which the MDC refuses to do. The MDC is demanding fresh elections, to be organised by an independent electoral commission. Ruling-party leaders know that a free and fair contest would spell the end of their political careers, and possibly their liberty, so they resist this idea.

    A lot of taxpayers? money has been spent on a campaign in the state media to persuade Zimbabweans that this week?s protest is a plot by white imperialists and their stooges to re-colonise Zimbabwe. The government scattered thousands of leaflets around Harare on Monday with the slogan: ?No to mass action, no to violence, no to British puppets, no to Rhodesian sell-outs, no to the MDC?.

    Few Zimbabweans pay much heed. Most are more concerned with their ever-barer dinner plates, which they tend to blame on the man who has ruled them since 1980. About half the population is dependent on food aid, which ZANU-PF officials have tried to deny to suspected dissidents. The main cause of the food shortages is probably the government?s corrupt and chaotic programme of land reform, which has seen productive commercial farms seized from their white owners, ostensibly for redistribution to the landless. In fact, the land has often been given to rich cronies of the regime. Production of food and cash crops for export has plummeted, leaving the country both hungry and broke.

    Last week, in anticipation of trouble and strikes, those Zimbabweans who could afford to tried to stock up on maize meal and cash. The banks promptly ran out of banknotes. ?There is no need to panic,? the central-bank governor told journalists, assuring them that more would soon be printed. Inflation is 269% and rising. The economy is contracting like a punctured tyre. And judging by this week?s events, things will get worse in Zimbabwe before they get better.

    [link=]British Churchmen backs Mugabe[/link], a piece that reminded me about Hitchen's screed months ago against [link=]unprincipled application of moral unseriousness[/link].
  5. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Jun 12, 1999
    sorry about the slowness of my reply point was that mugabe' internal support isn't what it was, and thats one of the main reasons for the land seizure/anti british policies of late...........whether this lack of support translates into support for foreign invasion i am not so sure, i would think though this would play into mugabe's anti british propoganda.............however i think an internal solution is more likely, along the lines of the Liberation war, if mugabe does not give........

    regarding Nkomo's group and the difference between it and say, Mugabe's branch of ZANU, well from memory there were definate geographic/tribal characteristics to each party, perhaps not so much in the begining, but i think by the late 70s with prospect of a settlement coming this became polarised.......however that being said i shall review my sources, it has beena few years since i looked at that period in detail

    on another note, the british ambassador in Harare has been expelled, apaparently
  6. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Jun 12, 1999
    just checked my email, got this poem from the offical MDC (opposition party) newsletter which i have subscribed to for about 2 years now...

    In The Shadow Of The Flag
    By Thamsanqa Ncube

    They speak of Peace,
    And they send the Green Bombers to our houses,
    They spoke of Unity,
    And Gukurahundi stared us in the face,
    They speak of Freedom,
    And the Draconian Press laws leap out at us from every corner,
    And in the Shadow of the Flag, the Motherland burns . . .

    He travels around the world,
    The gospel of arrogance and defiance spewing out of his lips,
    She tags along, raiding the malls of the West,
    As our children die of hunger on the streets of Harare,
    He speaks of the future and rebuilding our land,
    As he robs this country blind,
    She struts the conference halls of the world, funny hats and all,
    As our young women prostitute themselves in the red-light districts of Diaspora,
    And in the Shadow of the Flag, the Motherland bleeds . . .

    Our neighbours pretend they care,
    "Quiet diplomacy", they call it,
    As our young men swim across crocodile-infested rivers,
    Risking life and limb to flee the tyranny in their land,
    They humbly serve the tyrant at their tables of plenty,
    As this once proud people is reduced to begging,
    And in the Shadow of the Flag,
    The cries of the orphans of the motherland
    Reverberate against the African sky . . .

    The civilised world turns a blind eye,
    As the blood of the sons and daughters of this land flows,
    They speak of 'a Zimbabwean solution for a Zimbabwean problem',
    As they prepare to attack Iraqi, 'To rid the world of all dictators',
    When does a tyrant become a dictator,
    When do we become a part of the world,
    Does our suffering mean anything, to anybody,
    For how can they watch us,
    In the Shadow of the Flag?
    The Massacre goes on . . .

    Spirit of Nehanda and Kaguvi arise,
    Turn in your graves, Nkomo, Tongogara
    Speak voices of Africa,
    Samora where are you?
    Madiba we need you,
    For, in the Shadow of the Flag,
    Even if it does not happen in my time,
    Or in my children's time,
    Peace will come to this land,
    And the flame of freedom will burn again . . .
    Amandla! Amandla!

  7. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Jun 12, 1999
    and then this today from the south african Mail and Guardian....

    apparently the Zimbabwean High Commissioner to Botswana assaulted a journalist for writing and article suggesting regime change was likely
  8. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 21, 1999
    Journalist from Botswana? I thought they expelled all foreign accredited journalists?
  9. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Jun 12, 1999
    well i am guessing that journalists from friendly african states would get better access than ones from the hostile the two states have a large common border, and i think the journalist was black, so he could blend in to a certain extent
  10. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 21, 1999
    [link=,2763,997731,00.html]UN protects torturer[/link]
    [blockquote]The UN has refused to arrest a Zimbabwean police officer accused of torture who is currently working for it in Kosovo as a member of an international training team.

    ...Zimbabwean police thought to have done a good job by the country's government are often seconded to UN peacekeeping missions, where conditions are comparatively good and they are paid in dollars.

    Mr Dowa has been named by several Zimbabwean torture victims as having directed and carried out beatings with fists, boots and pickaxe handles, and as having administered electric shocks to the point of convulsions, at Harare central police station throughout 2002 and in early 2003.

    ...The controversy highlights the concern of human rights groups that the UN is not properly vetting police and troops seconded to it. "We question why the UN is accepting secondments from Zimbabwe, where it is well documented that torture is endemic," Dr D'Souza said.

    The UN, in a departure of serving the interests of some of its dictator members, is now helping their lackeys, too.
  11. DarthKarde

    DarthKarde Jedi Knight star 5

    Jun 28, 2002
    All in all Kosovo is not a good advertisement for the UN trying to run a country or in this case only a small part of a country.
  12. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 21, 2002
    It is also a shame that, while the UN is striving for recognition as an unbiased mediator, politics always enter into the equation.

    Are the UN resources stretched so thin that it couldn't sideline one man to conduct an investigation of the validity of the charges?

    This simple act would have helped legitimize the UN, something which is looking like will never happen.
  13. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Jun 12, 1999
    well you have to remember a large proportion of the UN member states don't have a problem with Mugabe and his regime, and probably have much worse criminals in their pay..........its the old non-aligned movement/group of 77 alliance........solidarity at all costs against the developed states
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