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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

JCC Embrace The FU - Formerly the STAR WARS IS BAD thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by -polymath-, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    There's a difference between inspiration and (franchise self-)plagiarism. Abrams' Trek films were both essentially The Wrath of Khan with unearned plot and character beats; Star Trek Into Darkness literally had the same dialog in the climax. And in TFA there are numerous examples of things being lifted from ANH effectively unaltered, such as an astromech droid carrying hidden data. When I was watching STID and TFA, I found myself wishing that I were watching their much better, more competently written, and yes, more original predecessors. I don't feel that with ANH and The Hidden Fortress and Flash Gordon (though like most people, I've never seen the serials) same way I don't feel that way with, like, Apocalypse Now and Heart of Darkness. People deservedly savage many sequels for nonsensically and lazily repeating their predecessors, and I don't understand why we shouldn't hold our favorite franchises to the same standard.

    And yes, I know Lucas wasn't responsible for ANH being as well-done as it was except in that he knew who to partner with, and Roddenberry most certainly wasn't responsible for WoK.
     
  2. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Downunder: Why would she even have attempted a mind trick? What reason does she have to expect something like that exists or would work in the first place? That’s not how any part of the world to her knowledge—let alone anything in her own life experience—has even remotelybfunctioned up until the very second she was successful. Why would she keep trying, as if she knew she was on the edge of success instead of a complete lunatic trying things that weren’t real?
     
  3. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    And if TFA was meant to be for a new generation what ANH was for its predecessors, maybe the critiques of the older generation are less relevant?

    AM JUST SAYING.
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Not interested in being an Abrams defender but a couple of quick points. His movies show an alternate timeline, which is a staple of Trek going back to TOS. Some of the other alternate/mirror universe arcs also show similar yet different events featuring the same characters. Can't see how this is a big deal.
    Have had this conversation too many times. Suffice it to say the earlier SW movies, esp the Prequels do similar things. Anyway TFA far more closely mirrors RotJ, as described here.
    Indeed. How many kids who love TFA have even seen that space movie from the 70's.
     
  5. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Real talk after reading The 50 Year Mission I found myself wondering why Roddenberry gets credit for... like, anything. But anyway:

    Because it's ceased to be used as a meaningful critique whereby innovative non-franchise films can be pointed to as a gold standard and has instead been hijacked into a corporate in-fight proxy war based on ad revenue where some parts of a given franchise are pitted against other parts to ultimately no ends beyond the parent companies' and maybe some terrible websites'. As ticket sales are essentially guaranteed within statistically acceptable levels as the Chinese market (which oftentimes has had very limited to no exposure to the source material and thus is less susceptible franchise fatigue anyway) continues to grow, the cry of "originality" falls on deaf ears and nostalgia driven consumers, aching for the comforts of a fantasy time that never existed, cling to their dead properties' glory days like a raft in a storm, unaware that they have already begun to drown.

    Luckily for them the 4K remaster is coming.
     
  6. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Force assisted intuition. I don't recall Luke ever getting instruction in telekinesis. He was also not supposed to've had any training between ANH-ESB. So how did he know to try to summon his lightsaber wedged in the ice? Probably just felt that he could.
     
  7. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    That’s idiotic. So why even bother when instruction then? The Force not only gives you superpowers but explains to you in detail how and when to use them?

    We dipped in and out of a several hours journey on the Falcon, where Kenobi and Luke were shown continuously dialogue from about the Force. It seems much more credible that it was covered then.
     
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  8. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    In the previous scene Rey experienced first hand how the Force can affect the mind. That's a form of instruction isn't it?

    Let's not go down a pointless TFA rabbit hole. Sure you recall the GoT debates o_O
     
  9. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I give him credit for the optimistic future that distinguishes Trek from practically every other major sci-fi property nowadays-- and it's a big reason I'm annoyed with dreck like the Abramsverse and Discovery appearing to follow its lead. Beyond that, though, yes, he largely wasn't responsible for the good stuff.
    Man, I was born four years after RotJ. I was only 9 when the Special Editions were released. I came of age after the PT. If anything, I'm that generation. :p Yes, ANH has dated elements, but so do a hell of a lot of other classic films, and it doesn't excuse repeating the damned thing "new generation" or not. There's more than one way to start a story.
     
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  10. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Wocky what would you like to see in a Star Wars film?
     
  11. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001


    Yea but I'm thinking - my kid probably won't care as much about some 40+ year old film as they will about one today, especially if that one is about a girl called Rey?
     
  12. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Like I said, there's no reason Rey couldn't have been the star of a new story. It's a retroactive excuse for creative laziness and corporate risk-aversion.
    Speaking for myself, I want something new. New plots, new characters-- things that aren't just copies and nostalgia pandering. If you want something more specific, I can't tell you. I would never claim to be a creative storyteller and I'm not a millionaire writer-director.
     
  13. Adam of Nuchtern

    Adam of Nuchtern Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    As Saladin Ahmed put it:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    At first glance that looks like a clever tweet. Then when you think about it, of course the first SW film contains the original inspiration for the Saga. Whereas all of the sequels, of which TFA is one are variations on an established theme.
     
  15. DebonaireNerd

    DebonaireNerd Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2012

    More hipster beards and filtered coffee thanks.
     
  16. DebonaireNerd

    DebonaireNerd Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2012

    More hipster beards and filtered coffee thanks.
     
  17. DebonaireNerd

    DebonaireNerd Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2012
    More hipster beards for me and filtered coffee.
     
  18. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    3 coffees is too much caffeine. The reason you haven't heard from Wock is bcs that question has fried his circuits, causing a deadly feedback loop. He knows how to tell us what he doesn't like. Has no idea how to explain what he would like.
     
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  19. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    JJ may not be original, but at least he's generally high quality.
    His first ST movie is very good, as is TFA despite mostly copying ANH.
    It's great if you're refreshing a franchise, but not if you need to do more with it. Which is my concern for IX, can he do something new?

    In the end quality is what matters.
    Lucas had original ideas when he did the PT, but they weren't very good movies.
    I was excited by the idea of Lucas' vision for the ST being handled by a more capable director (as with Indiana Jones), but then his ideas were tossed out the window in favour of copying his best work.

    Had Lucas himself made the ST it might suck, but it would at least have gone in a new direction.

    I'd like to see both in Star Wars' future, so far Disney has been playing it too safe.
     
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  20. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    itt people rationalise taste
     
  21. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Fixed.
     
  22. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    Imagine Wocky’s TFA posts if the movie had had sex people in it.
     
  23. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    There's far more in TFA that came from Lucas & Arndt than many realise. As this explains.

    As for Abrams, we should separate his two roles & evaluate each of them. When most people seem to criticise him as a director they're not criticising his direction at all, but rather his writing. "Rehash, unoriginal stories" etc etc. Purely as a director I think he's outstanding in these types of movies. He directs action scenes very well & works brilliantly with actors. Even critics of his movies admit that he gets committed convincing performances from his cast. His writing is more contentious. Obviously he leans into nostalgia more than some would like. With regards to Ep IX he's working on the script with an Oscar winning co-writer as well as the LFL Story Group. They have a long time to get it right having pushed the movie back to Dec 2019. He also has to follow the story trajectory that Rian Johnson has set with TLJ. So I have no doubt that they'll get the story to where it needs to be, having taken on board some of the whining about TFA. Once that's done the movie will be in very good hands with him at the helm.
     
  24. jp-30

    jp-30 Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2000
    Rey will be the star of X, XI, XII. Newish story, probably.
     
  25. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    But the thread is about Star Wars, not Wild Wild West.
     
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