JCC Embrace The FU - Formerly the STAR WARS IS BAD thread

Now that I think about the comics, Lucien Draay and the covenant were good villains. After IX, they would do well to adapt the KOTOR comics into a movie and make the Jedi Covenant the villains. It'd be something "new" movie-wise, at least.

 

I wish they wouldn't, because Star Wars movies could really use a movie where a group of Jedi, believing they are doing what is right and fighting the dark side, are the villains.

 

Oh hey he's that annoying boss from the obligatory obnoxious end-of-an-Obsidian-title dungeon, I guess I do.

 

It was just a wrong stylistic decision, especially added to his quirky directing and overblown writing. He needed someone to rein him in, like Gary Kurtz.
McCallum was not that guy.

The prequels are the cinematic equivalent of Kevin J. Anderson's Jedi Academy book trilogy.

 

But you could imagine the PT as some background EU around an actually good story.

 

The problem with the PT isn't the story, it's the execution of said story.

 

Yeah, and the story.

 

A good story told badly isn't a bad story.

Most of us knew the story of the Fall of Anakin Skywalker even before the PT existed, and it was a good story then.

TCW showed exactly how great Lucas' story is, if done with better writing to develop characters.

The whole master plan of Palpatine/Sidious is genius, being the leader of both sides & playing them all for fools so he can conquer the galaxy & destroy the Jedi.

 

If you're at the point where the divide between "story" and "execution of a story" allows the latter to include a vestigial film in a trilogy then IMO I think the division has gotten too broad. There's a good high concept, maybe, if you bracket the question of whether or not the films even needed to exist.

 

Uh, no, we didn't. Clone wars, pilot, a good friend, betrayed and murdered your father. That's it. That's not even a story, never mind a good one.

 

I'd rather face ritual execution than discuss execution of the story of the PT.

 

I wouldn't say Kylo Ren is necessarily inadequate. I know memes tell us that he's an autistic emo whose not good at anything, and we should always be listening to memes! I think it's more that he's got a lot to live up to, being a Skywalker, being the nephew of the greatest Jedi in recent history, being the grandson of a powerful Sith Lord who terrorized the galaxy, the son of two Rebel war-heroes. These are genuinely big shoes to fill for anyone. He's been overshadowed by everybody else in his family his whole life. He probably suffered from the same traits the other Skywalker males had: impulse control, easily attached, whining, etc. that stood as obstacles in his path to becoming a Jedi.

I know I'm getting to speculation here, but it's likely we'll see him resenting his family for not telling him about Vader sooner, feeling like they didn't trust him with this information, that they didn't have confidence that he could handle knowing this without falling to the dark side (all while these emotions are drawing him closer to the dark side). We know he's fascinated with Vader, and the fact that they kept Vader a secret probably made him dive headfirst into wanting to learn about him, instead of gradually introducing being related to Vader as a concept through his childhood. They don't really elaborate what he specifically meant by repeatedly saying that Han Solo was weak, but I'm guessing there's a little anti-normal bias and force supremacy there. He's probably always somewhat resented the fact that his father is not a force user, and you know Han probably made several sarcastic comments during his initial entry into learning about the force before going to Luke's academy, which riled him to no end.

It's interesting that he doesn't mention Leia at all. He talks about Luke as someone to be defeated, Vader as someone to emulate, and Han as a weak figure to be cast aside. But he doesn't mention Leia. Does he still love her? Or is the fact that she never went down the path of a Jedi something that makes her irrelevant, someone to ignore like Han?

I don't know if any of this will come true, but it's stuff I'm easily imagining. But I think Kylo Ren's probably the most complex and nuanced Star Wars villain we've had in a long time.

 

Do you know how low of a bar that is? Previous film villains have included:

1. Darth Maul- Generic evil guy with no motivations offered
2. Count Dooku- Formerly good guy who turns generically evil with no motivations offered
3. General Grievous- Incompetent generically evil guy with no motivations offered
4. Emperor Palpatine- Near-literal embodiment of evil. Very power hungry, but it is frankly unclear if this is being posited as a consequence of his evil or the cause of it.

The only real exception to this is Darth Vader. He was more complex only in that we learned he was once a good Jedi who betrayed his loved ones, but harbored bitterness towards some and affection towards others, which would would later be leveraged into his redemption. The character you are discussing was once a good Jedi who betrayed his loved ones, but harbored bitterness towards some and (probably) affection towards others. This may well be leveraged later into his redemption.

Do you see the problem here?

 

The story is ridiculous. For example, a boy has to win a race to get money to buy a hyperdrive because one shop on a planet doesn't deal in universal currency.

 

I agree, Star Wars was never good.

 

In an event he's never even finished before.

 

The queen will not approve.

 

Not my point. Sometimes simple archetypes still make for powerful, effective story-telling. They include some of the most culturally important and profound tales that we have So yes, we're all perfectly welcome to enjoy them.

But let's not use ridiculous, inflationary rhetoric like "the most complex villain ever" when it's A)still very straightforward and B)a complete retread of a previous character concept. That's as silly as, well, making a whole movie to prove that TPM is good because of reasons like "It has symbolism!" If you really like something, why not like it on its own terms?

 

Wocky there were several EU villains that were good.