Mugen posted:

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If I can remember correctly..Cat (hates..ok, dislikes) Mace Windu. (tell me if im correct)

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cathiecat posted:

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Mugen has a very good memory the only saving grace that Mace has fore me is that Shatterpoint is AWESOME and I totally loved it!!

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cathiecat posted:

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Because I think he played right into Palpatine's hands and gave Anakin more than enough reason to doubt the Jedi Order. Mace was supposed to be this strong of will and commitment Jedi, up there with Yoda and he did not act like it.. (again, this is not the fault of Mace, it is the character developement and I did not like where character developement took Mace Windu when it came to Anakin, Mace did not act like a Jedi, he acted like a Sith)

Now, the book Shatterpoint.. that made Mace into the awesome Jedi I figured and expected him to be! Once I read Shatterpoint it changed my whole perception of Mace.. it doesn't change what he later did though....Mace's actions and words towards and about Anakin, was imho part of what made it so easy for Palpatine to get Anakin over to the 'dark' side.

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jedirevan1 posted:

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I think what made it easy for Anakin to turn to the Dark Side was that his emotions were used aganist him, plain and simple. And, Palpatine knew Anakin's greatest weakness was his inability to control them. Palpatine knew what strings to pull, and Anakin was manipulated along with everyone else.

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thatsMISTERwookiee posted:

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cathiecat posted:

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Because I think he played right into Palpatine's hands and gave Anakin more than enough reason to doubt the Jedi Order. Mace was supposed to be this strong of will and commitment Jedi, up there with Yoda and he did not act like it.. (again, this is not the fault of Mace, it is the character developement and I did not like where character developement took Mace Windu when it came to Anakin, Mace did not act like a Jedi, he acted like a Sith)

Now, the book Shatterpoint.. that made Mace into the awesome Jedi I figured and expected him to be! Once I read Shatterpoint it changed my whole perception of Mace.. it doesn't change what he later did though....Mace's actions and words towards and about Anakin, was imho part of what made it so easy for Palpatine to get Anakin over to the 'dark' side.

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So your problem with Mace is that he never completely trusted Anakin, the Jedi who would turn against his own by becoming a Sith Lord, slaughtering the Jedi younglings, and helping Darth Sidious hunt down and destroy the Jedi Order.
Oh, wait, there is the one time Mace did completely trust Anakin. He trusted Anakin to watch his back while Mace fought with Sidious, and Anakin slices Mace's arm off. You're right, if only Mace had been more trusting of the young Jedi, Anakin could have helped KILL MACE SOONER.

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hal9k1 posted:

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jedirevan1 posted:

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I think what made it easy for Anakin to turn to the Dark Side was that his emotions were used aganist him, plain and simple. And, Palpatine knew Anakin's greatest weakness was his inability to control them. Palpatine knew what strings to pull, and Anakin was manipulated along with everyone else.

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Yep, Mace was just as manipulated as Anakin was... they all were (the galaxy not just the Jedi and Sith orders).

If that’s the reason to dislike Mace than I would think it’s double for Yoda.
At least Mace was honest about his distrust for Anakin.

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cathiecat posted:

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hal9k1 posted:

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jedirevan1 posted:

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I think what made it easy for Anakin to turn to the Dark Side was that his emotions were used aganist him, plain and simple. And, Palpatine knew Anakin's greatest weakness was his inability to control them. Palpatine knew what strings to pull, and Anakin was manipulated along with everyone else.

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Yep, Mace was just as manipulated as Anakin was... they all were (the galaxy not just the Jedi and Sith orders).

If that’s the reason to dislike Mace than I would think it’s double for Yoda.
At least Mace was honest about his distrust for Anakin.

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Yoda never distrusted Anakin, he distrusted their ability to read the prophecy.

Yoda did have trust that Anakin would do the right thing, that was one of the reasons why Yoda felt he had failed, it was not just that he failed in a duel against Palpatine, Yoda failed to see what was happening and he felt very much that the Jedi Order Failed.. not just himself.. they should have been more proactive in the fight against the dark lord.. not in the fight against everything else.. Yoda felt very much to blame.. Mace never showed that.. he never showed that he should have been more attentive to what was going on... he just barreled in.. and his decision to attempt to kill palpatine is what drove anakin over the edge.

Yes.. Palpatine orchestrated it.. but why did Mace have to attempt to kill him.. all Mace had to do was subdue Palpatine and take him in. I truly believe Anakin would have helped him do that.. Anakin was not a happy camper to find out Palpatine was the Sith, he turned him in for it in fact.. it was Mace's actions that drove Anakin over the edge I say again.

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Going solely from memory here, Yoda did not want Anakin to become a Jedi in the first place. Qui-Gon said he would train the boy in spite of what the Council said. I hardly call that trust.

As far as simply "subduing" Sidious, please remember; four Jedi went in, only one was still alive when Anakin arrived. With three of your fellow Jedi lying dead around you, that is hardly the time to ask, "So, Sidious, had enough, or do we, err, I have to get rough?"

Kat's assessment of Sidious/Palpatine's actions after Anakin arrived is quite correct. Sidious/Palpatine twisted the situation to make himself look the victim, and make Mace APPEAR to be the bad guy. If Anakin had pulled his head out of his butt long enough to look around and see the three dead Jedi, Sidious/Palpatine's "help me, I'm a helpless old man" routine might not have swayed him as much. If you should read this, George, no need to re-write the entire series just to please me. Overall, your story works, although the "dead Padme" part still confuses me.