Lit Diversity in SW Lit - Coop's Temporary Whining Thread

The problem is, both race and orientation need proactive inclusion in order to not be ignored altogether - the same way a lot of characters could be black if someone felt so inclined, a lot of characters could be gay. But in the type of stories SW tends to tell, a character could be around for ages without their skin tone or personal life ever being "relevant to the story" - so if it's not proactively addressed, they end up being white and/or straight by default.

This is why Rue in Hunger Games ended up causing trouble; people are so used to every character being completely homogeneous that to do anything else requires deliberate action beyond what may be story-relevant. LFL is trying to keep its hands clean by ignoring race and orientation as much as possible, with the end result being that pic of Mara's funeral.

I think there are a number of different areas in Star Wars where being trans might still be a problem (could also depend on the society...not all planets may be very progressive. This happened for example in Battlestar Galactica where one planet was more religious than the others and did not support abortion; people from another planet experienced racism from a physician on the Galactica, etc.)

An officer in Palpatine's Empire, for example, might have had some issues if she was trans but in the closet. This person could be high up in the ranks and have seen what had happen to Daala and other female candidates, recognizing that were she to live openly as a woman or get surgery she would lose her position in the fleet.

Or, imagine being transgender on Dathomir or Hapes.

I think this is kind of similar to the past worrisome excuses that DelRey has used to not have diversity, though. Some authors are never going to view diversity as relevant to the story. And plenty of things are not relevant to the story but put in for fan service. The ample description's of Mara Jade's "red gold hair" were arguably not relevant to the story but still appeared. I can't see why a throwaway line about someone's dark skin or checking someone out couldn't appear, either.

The story is still the most important element of the whole senario. Otherwise we're just creating dungeons and dragons character sheets. Why wouldn't characters of different skin colors be relevent to the story? Look how well its worked for Legacy. We didn't get a diverse cast just to have a diverse cast. Thats kinda what I'm talking about there. We don't need a T-Dog situation from The Walking Dead just to fill a quota. We need characters that are relevent and important.

Goran Beviin's relationship with Medrit was relevent to the story. It wasn't the central aspect of the tale, but relevent none the less. He is a prominate character where he appears and the fleshing out of his relationships and life added depth to his character.

Kenth Hamner is mentioned but really would we have benefitted from him having a different skin color? This is a guy who had very little screen time prior to FOTJ and really was only important to one novel where he was killed. It would have been fine if he was Asian, but then we would simply have the only Asian character getting killed off. Where would that leave the discussion?

Whats needed is a main character of color in the novels. Someone the like of Tahiri who's not only had a special relationship with Anakin Solo but was adopted into the Solo family and arguably became the first Imperial Knight. This should be the aim. While it would be great to diversify the secondary cast it still won't be significant until the primary cast gets a little more flavor to it.

Guys, maybe transgender DOES NOT exist in star wars. Why does it need to be? I want there to be things separating our world and the GFFA. We don't need transgenderism.

The GFFA already has many similarities already to our own world, we don't need anymore.

Just like its a dumb idea to add transgenderism to the LOTOR universe.....somehow.


It would be even worse if transgenderism was added by retconing an already existing character. We were told some guy was a man, now we find out he/she is biologically female.

....

It already exists though

Fan, it stems from the fact that SW chooses to incorporate human beings into its universe. If we were reading about an entirely alien galaxy then the argument could at least be made that it doesn't need to reflect every single facet of the real world (though there could still be interesting thematic reasons to do so), but when we've already got thousands of human characters in a galaxy with trillions of humans, not including a certain percentage of trans people isn't avoiding controversy, it's active and deliberate exclusion, and it's an implicit comment on the value of those people. Think about it; your argument could just as easily be used against anyone - why do we need to see Asian people in Star Wars? Being "Asian" is an anachronism in that galaxy anyway, and it's not relevant to the story, so why not just make everyone white? You know, average?

I'm not accusing you of all that, mind, I'm just saying it's a slippery slope. Active exclusion is not the same as neutrality.

So you think that Timothy Zahn or John Ostrander is making an implicit comment about the value of transgender people by not including them in their stories? I can't say I agree with that.

Really how many transgender people, as a percentage of population of the earth, make up our real world populations? I'd imagine that its very small overall number. I'd imagine a lot of people go through their lives on earth never having knowingly met a transgender person.

It seems to me this is as much of a slippery slope as the whole diversity situation itself. That is the idea that we have to include some of everything from the real world just for the value of political correctness.

We could easily meet thousands(if not millions) of characters in the Star Wars Universe before we meet someone who is transgender based on real world percentages. Now if an author wanted to include trangender characters in their story, more power to them, but I don't think it should be somekind of requirement that leads to us pointing a finger at the authors and slinging accusations about how they are making a deliberate political comment about the value of anyone in the real world.

Not individual authors, no, but the franchise as a whole, absolutely - especially after twenty-odd years of publishing.

I don't know exactly what the trans rate is on Earth, but we have indeed met thousands of characters thus far, and less than one per million? That's pushing it. Like I said, I don't see someone having undergone a trans procedure early in their life as being at all relevant to the average SW story, so I'm perfectly happy to just see the phenomenon acknowledged in CN and assume that they're around. The difference between trans characters and gay or nonwhite characters is that the ideal situation for a trans person (by and large, anyway) is one in which they're indistinguishable from anyone else. As freac points out, there could be value in talking about the experience of a trans person on Hapes, say, but I admit that it's not something I see the franchise needing to deal with directly.

I wholeheartedly agree here. I would have to honestly say that I really don't like controversial Earth politics in my Star Wars, as I read/watch it to escape from real life. And sexual politics is too much of a hot potato. I don't care if there is a gay/whatever/whatever in the story as long as it's relevant to the plot, but often times they are shoehorned in for 'diversity' or Mary Sued so the author doesn't feel s/he's being a 'bigot' for giving them negative traits.

But who decides what's controversial? If these books were being written in the fifties there'd be no black people. If they were being written a hundred years ago they'd have to make sure character names weren't too Jewish- or even Irish-sounding. What one person sees as controversial is what another person sees in the mirror in the morning.

I will point out that the 'Mara's funeral' pic isn't even the worst example. Look at the Council in KOTOR II, 3 white males, and two white females, and all are human. And all but one were created just for that game.

At least that could potentially be blamed on one person. The funeral stands out to me because it involves numerous characters, all introduced in prose, from several different authors, over more than a decade.

Although I've fallen off in my following of the Hong Kong film industry in recent years, I've legitimately seen several hundred of these films in my wife. Is it odd that as a white guy from Canada I never once looked at those films and asked myself "Where are all the white people?"

Jusr something thats popped into my head tonight, I'm not really sure what to make of it myself.

Including the identities of people, including the people who read Star Wars (not just white male cisgendered people) would not simply be for the purposes of "political correctness." That perspective is what is preventing Star Wars from achieving the same diverse verisimilitude that Star Trek has had a far easier time achieving. TONS of straight characters are included in Star Wars even though their heterosexuality is not relevant to the plot. That isn't shoehorning? That isn't Mary Sueism? That isn't "political correctness." Yet, the mere notion of possibly including LGBTQ characters results in hand-wringing speculation about author's motives. There are more reasons than "political correctness," whatever that means.

The fact that you can use Star Wars to "escape from real life" is a privilege in and of itself. The lack of inclusion of LGBTQ characters means that people who are LGBTQ cannot use Star Wars to escape from real life in the same way--when they read Star Wars, they are escaping into a fictional universe where they continue to be marginalized, even as that fictional universe posits itself as more "futuristic and advanced" towards them than real life.

slinging accusations about how they are making a deliberate political comment about the value of anyone in the real world.

Coop said implicit. Because that's what it is, implicit. That's very different from "slinging accusations" or "deliberate" comment. Lack of comment is still a form of comment.

I'd hazard that it's because you are a white guy from Canada who has access to tons and tons of material featuring people who look like you. It would likely be different if you were an Asian Canadian or a First Nations Canadian. (Even if there are films from Hong Kong featuring Asians, that is still not the same as films featuring Asian Canadians.)

The Hong Kong film industry's relationship with white people is really quite different from the North American film industry's relationship with people of color. Star Wars was created in the United States and in a society that is substantially more diverse.

I think that would really depend on who you ask, I'm sure fans who are trans would appreciate seeing a character they can relate to with that aspect of their identity...if they have any reason to be fans of Star Wars currently given the lack of representation and the warm fandom. That being said, I was more pointing out examples of areas where being transgender would still result in a person being treated differently in Star Warsverse...I'm arguing that realistically, based on what we know about the Star Wars universe, being trans would still be really hard in specific regions and time periods in the galaxy.

I also saw some comments on the percentage of people who are trans in "real world." I think it's relatively common, but it's also important to note that the gender binary/heteronnormativity is a common construct but even on earth several cultures have "third" genders that occupy a liminal space between the two commonly delineated gender categories. First Nations people have the concept of twospirit, in South Asia there are hijras, in Thailand there are katoey, there are people who are androgyne, bigender, and genderqueer. So frankly, to me it is weird and also kind of telling that we have seen very few human cultures in Star Wars that ever deviate from strict gender binaries. Need more anthropologists and sociologists in our Star Wars world building, perhaps?

A cursory Google search has found that even the Florida Family Association has managed to create a transgender/non-gender normative character where DelRey has failed.

(I mean, have you seen some of the Sith fashions? I'm sure Darth VuPaula would fit right in.)

doublepost

I'm sure you could name me some Star Wars characters who's hetrosexuality isn't relevent to the plot. If I am a writer and I want to write a character in a certain way, well, thats that. If Star Wars really wants to explore this they will need to look at their choice of authors. You can't just go to say Allston and tell him that he has to include this or that thus taking away his creative freedom.

Star Wars can't be everything to all people.

I also don't think Star Wars ever promised to be everything to all people. If it ever did then your comment would have more weight.

So you feel the authors are responsible then?

See, I can't change who I am though but I've never felt seeing people who look like me, whatever that means, has had any bearing on my entertainment choices. I've never viewed someone who is black or asian as being different from me. I married a Filipino girl and a lot of my best friends are Filipinos.

I can understand people enjoying watching and reading about their own cultures, sure. I enjoy watching programming about Canadians, that doesn't mean a assign requirements to it.

I think your underestimating the diversity of that part of the world. Also since your talking about films I really think the films themselves tried very hard to be diverse. Lando Calrissian blew up a death star, Mace Windu in the highest ranking member of the Jedi Order, Mon Mothma is the leader of the rebellion - Jedi come in all colors, shapes and sizes. Your also talking about a film maker who had a dream in life to make a film about the Tuskeegee Airmen and made a fantasy film that starred Warwick Davis as the main protaganist.

As critical as I am of many of George Lucas's decisions I don't think one can blame the lack of diversity in the Star Wars EU on him.

Though some people may be not interested in these types of stories I don't think you can definitivly claim that the fandom isn't warm to the idea. We wouldn't be here discussing this if people were not accepting of the endless possibilities. I only draw the line where established characters are concerned, everything else is fair game.
All I ask is that these characters be more than simply window dressing. Make them real, make them count, make me care about them.

I want to ask you as well about your reading Jedifreac. Have you read Legacy? Have you read Shatterpoint? How about Revelation? No Prisoners maybe?

For that matter we've talked about Halenna Devis and Pellaeon's children in this very thread. Does anyone here in the diversity thread know that Halenna is black?

"A striking woman with flawless black skin" no less.

Regarding John/Jan and Traviss, all have received a lot of praise from this thread in the past - moreso in its prior incarnation, but trust me, their efforts have been noted.

I'm not sure if that's quite what she was suggesting, but what I'll say on the matter myself is that the problem is largely the result of the EU not living up to Lucas' track record. Rather than use Mara's funeral again, let's look at another pic that's at least a little better:



(PS, Mods, if someone can explain to me how to adjust image sizes, I will gladly listen)

Now let's look at the Jedi Council according to Lucas:



I think we may actually agree on some of the fundamentals of this, Kais, so I'll try to boil it down as much as possible - can you see how the difference between those two groups of characters can stick out to people, and do you think that's a problem?

I am not sure if I posted something along these lines in the old thread, but if we are discussing authors & artists that DO show a level of diversity, the undisputed champions are John Ostrander and Jan Duursema. As I am most familar with their work on Legacy, let's grade the series based on main character by each "faction":

The One Sith

1. Darth Krayt (human male)
2. Darth Wyyrlok (Chagrian male)
3. Darth Nihl (Nagai male)
4. Darth Talon (Twi'lek female)
5. Darth Maladi (Devaronian female)
6. Darth Azard (Quarren male)
7. Darth Havok (Iktotchi male)
8. Darth Stryfe (human male)

Score: 6/8 non-humans, 2/8 females

The Sith Empire (non-Sith members)

1. Morlish Veed (human male)
2. Nyna Calixte (human female)
3. Rulf Yage (human male)
4. Geist (human male)
5. Fehlaaur (Chiss male)
6. Gunner Yage (human female)
7. Konrad Rus (human male)
8. Krion Grail (human male)

Score: 1/8 non-human, 2/8 female

The Fel Empire-in-exile

1. Roan Fel (human male)
2. Marasiah Fel (human female)
3. Antares Draco (human male)
4. Ganner Krieg (human male)
5. Treis Sinde (human male)
6. Sigel Dare (human female)
7. Azlyn Rae (human female)
8. Hogrum Chalk (human male)

Score: 0/8 non-humans, 3/8 females

The Galactic Alliance Remnant

1. Gar Stazi (Duros male)
2. Jhoram Bey (Weequay male)
3. Anj Dahl (human female)
4. Monia Gahan (Mon Calamarian female)
5. Ronto (Klatooinian male)
6. Andurgo (Dug male)
7. Ona Antilles (human female)
8. Jaius Yorub (Sullustan male)

Score: 6/8 non-human, 3/8 female

The New Jedi Order

1. K'Kruhk (Whipid male)
2. T'ra Saa (Neti female)
3. Tili Qua (Chadra-Fan female)
4. Wolf Sazen (Zabrak male)
5. Shado Vao (Twi'lek female)
6. Te Corso (Elomin female)
7. Assak Dan (Togruta male)
8. Drok (Nikto male)

Score: 8/8 non-humans, 4/8 female

Fringer/Unaffliated/Etc

1. Cade Skywalker (human male)
2. Jariah Syn (human male)
3. Deliah Blue (Zeltron female)
4. Bantha "Nat Skywalker" Rawk (human male)
5. Queen Jool (Hutt female)
6. Hondo Karr (human male)
7. Chak (Wookiee male)
8. Kee (Devaronian female)

Score: 4/8 non-human, 3/8 female

Final Score: 25/48 non-human (52%), 17/48 female (35%)

Compare that to any current Dramatis Personae from Del Rey and you will see a HUGE difference. We even have prominent human characters that are not Caucasian.

--Adm. Nick

Coop - Can you do a comparison from the movie 4-6 to the EU? The EU from the picture descended directly from movies 4-6 and not from the first 3 because of Order 66. I completely agree that there is an issue here and truthfully I always pictured Octa Ramis as a black female (I understand that isn't how she's drawn but my brain does weird things sometimes.)