He tracked the Sandpeople? By what means? Considering his mother had been gone for a month, he's going to have a heck of a time trying to find their trail in the deserts of Tatooine. The lightest bit of wind will eliminate any evidence or tracks in an instant. I have no doubt that he might have checked in with any locals he ran across to make sure he was heading in the right direction, but, if you've ever been in a desert, try finding anyone through sheer luck alone. It's highly unlikely. And he also must have used the Force in at least one instance -- he was able to find Shmi's tent on the first try. He didn't have to check every tent in the Tusken camp to locate hers in particular. Also, why in the world would you presume that Vader, upon seeing a ship departing, would not scan the ship for any recognizable presences? This seems the most logical course of action considering that he is gathering information on his enemies. Also, even if the ship is taking off, I'm sure it's not going at several hundred miles per hour as it needs to accelerate (although let's not turn this into a discussion of the physics of Star Wars -- we won't get anywhere there! ). I don't see what the ship being sealed has to do with anything either. The Force isn't like sound waves -- it doesn't need a medium to travel through, so I'm sure he can sense things in a sealed chamber just fine. Checking the ship over since he's there and it's an enemy vessel seems only logical to me. Why would a week not be enough time for Vader to learn to recognize her presence? The films have never established any sort of limitation on this. And Vader has a vested interest in remembering Leia -- she's not some random trooper, she's the head of the opposition. I'm not suggesting that the Force acts as a radar, I'm suggesting that if Vader consciously scans the ship for familiar presences (because he's right there and he loses nothing from doing so besides gaining information) that he would recognize Leia. It's also certainly possible that Yoda, as a powerful Force user, could shield his presence from Palpatine. I'm not quite sure what you are referring to considering Jango. Obi-Wan was not in close proximity to Jango until he arrived on Kamino. In a nutshell, my argument is that if Vader is inspecting a known enemy ship for information on it's occupants, he would recognize untrained Leia. I don't see what's problematic about this. What leads does Vader have to try to find Luke? Seriously, I'm interested in hearing your answer on this because I'm not sure what they would be. Vader initially knows that Luke is with the Rebellion, but when they evacuate, how does he know where Luke will go? I actually think he does search out the Force looking for answers (hence why we see him meditating), but he's not going to find Luke because he's with Yoda. Also, who says he didn't interrogate anyone from Hoth? They obviously aren't going to show it in a PG movie though. But consider that no one knew where Luke was going -- he never told anyone and even R2 was surprised by the change in direction. So even if the Rebels were interrogated, they wouldn't have any information to give Vader. Leia herself is valuable, so Vader is going to try to capture her, especially since he's actually seen Luke in her presence. Besides her, Vader has no leads as to who Luke might be friendly with. Or maybe those interrogated Rebels told Vader that Luke cares for Han and Leia most and that they are in the Millennium Falcon -- that would certainly explain Vader's pursuit. I find your criticisms peculiar because you seem to be asking to be spoon-fed the information by the film. If something isn't shown onscreen then apparently there is no way for it to have happened. But the audience doesn't care about random Rebel #25 who gives the Imperials important information. What makes for good entertainment is seeing how they act on that information. Is it really such a stretch to believe that Vader could get information of Luke's close relationship to Han and Leia and then chase the Millennium Falcon as a result, considering it's Han's ships? There are plenty of possibilities and it's not a plot hole simply because it isn't spelled out onscreen.
He would have thought this because it would be pretty logical deductive reasoning. Firstly, I'm pretty sure he saw the Falcon being used in association more than once with Luke. But even if it was just the time that Luke and the others ran onto it after Vader killed Obi-Wan on the Death Star, the next time Vader sees that ship it is barreling towards him after destroying his wingman, which of course knocked him out of contention and allowed Luke to take the shot on the Death Star. Vader figures out later that Luke was indeed the young rebel who destroyed the Death Star, and he might make the logical assumption that the pilot of the Falcon and Luke are more than just two loosely associated members of the rebellion. I always took it that he figured out pretty early that Luke, Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and the droids were a pretty tightknit group, and also that he learned who the pilot of the Falcon was. The fact that Vader so badly wants to catch the Falcon supports the view that he thinks Luke is probably on it, not that this thread of TESB's plot is poorly written IMO. Also, nothing in the plan after they catch the Falcon (torturing Han, using them all as bait to bring Luke to Bespin) disagrees with that.
I thought it was explained in some STAR WARS novel or comic book that a spy had told Vader the name of the Battle of Yavin hero.
ESB has always been one of my top favorite SW movies. It's just that it took me years to understand what the Dagobah cave scene was about. And to this day, I still wonder why Leia was at the Rebel Alliance base on Hoth. I don't see how Anakin being labeled as "the Chosen One" in the PT damaged the integrity of the saga. Your arguments really don't make any sense to me.
As you yourself suggest, and the film in fact shows him doing, he asks people where they went. Based on eyewitness reports, he retraces the steps of that band of Sand people. Once he got close enough, there were a reasonable number of clues to go off. He was searching for a whole community, not one person. I don't know why you think this would be so impossible. How long does it take to scan for each? You have said that Jango was "out of range" when both were on Tipoca City, even though the city is only some 100 kilometers. He, has, then presumably a few seconds worth of scanning time before he's basically out of range. Certainly less than thirty seconds. And how many possibilities does he have to choose from? Keeping in mind most of the Rebel leadership formerly had some place in government, and thus probably some occasion for Vader to have become familiar with their "presence." He would have Luke, Mon Mothma, Dodonna, Crix Madine, Ackbar and Garm Bel Iblis, just off the top of my head. You're asking us to believe that from quite a length list, he chose Leia, and did so early enough the ship was still in range. This, while keeping in mind that he was in the middle of an active field, and thus not able to concentrate free of distraction, and that he gave no indication before, during, or after that he was doing any such scanning. I just don't think your case is very strong here. Well, let's see. He knows Luke is a pilot, so he might have tried to search the base or its occupants for information about what unit Luke is with, or what his callsign is. Alternatively, since we're imaging these bases all have security equipment, he might have seen about recovering/preserving the CCTV tapes from the Hoth station, and searching for any footage of Luke, so he could glean information that way. He might've assumed (as did everyone else in the film) that Luke was going to join up with the general evacuation. Thus, trying to find the rendezvous point would've been top priority, as it would let him capture both Luke and all the fleeing Rebels in one fell swoop. He might've tried to identify Luke's quarters, and go over it with a fine-tooth comb for evidence. He might even have recognized that even if Luke's trail went cold, they had still scored a historic victory against the Alliance, and there were plenty of opportunities there to exploit. Or he could haul off after a random spaceship, wasting hundreds of lives, thousands of dollars in repairs, and days of precious time chasing something he isn't even sure of the value of. Good job. The movie does. He left Hoth in hot pursuit of the Millennium Falcon. That's how there's a chase to begin with. He obviously didn't spend any substantial amount of time interrogating the captives from the Battle of Hoth. More to the point, though, your whole discussions here talks about things that we, the audience know. But how would Vader possibly know any of this? He wouldn't. That's the problem with this film, and your repeating the same mistake in your defense of it. Darth Vader is not watching the movie with us. He should only know things he has a reason to know. Come on. Again, it's highly unlikely Vader ever interrogated anyone on Hoth. "Seeing Luke in her presence" is incredibly lame, though. It's not a lead at all. It's just two people standing next to one another. I've outlined a few better uses of his time above. I think this is a pretty unfair thing to say. I have, without objection, granted you spy networks, CCTV cameras with audio-visual link ups that run through the whole Death Star, and a number of other things that appear nowhere onscreen. But what you're asking for here isn't a general assumption that can be easily justified. It's imagining that quite a specific event, of manifest importance to the plot occurred, but no one bothered to mention at all. Or even allude to it. That, I think, is inappropriate. This is especially the case when the films are replete with instances where they are able to explain such crucial information. How do the Rebels magically know the Death Stars weak spot? "We have analyzed it and found" the weakness, the guy giving the briefing explains. Why is Vader giving the third degree to Leia at the beginning of ANH? His intelligence traces the stolen plans back to her, he offers. How did the Emperor know to set an ambush for the Rebels? He had foreseen it. Usually, when we get some really important piece of information that a character needs to know, Lucas will have the sense to justify for us how he knows it. Here, though, Lucas just drops the ball, and leaves it totally unexplained. Why? What you just told me is that they went on one mission together, and then when they were a desperate race to destroy the Death Star before it could blow up the Rebel Base on Yavin IV, Han did something that allowed Luke to take one last shot and save the day. Are you seriously saying that if a Alliance member Luke wasn't best friends with had been in Han's place, he would've let Luke die and thus let the entire Yavin base be destroyed? Really?
The Empire Strikes Back is a masterpiece. Along with Godfather Part II, it is the best sequel to any movie, of any franchise. The Chase scene makes perfect sense, so long as a viewer doesn't expect a film to hold their hand through the entire two hours and carefully explain each and every component of the story. It's not even complicated. Also, the Chase sequence between Hoth and Bespin is better than anything in the entire prequel trilogy. And that's not even the best part of TESB.
I'll agree that it's not my favorite in the saga, however the idea that ESB DOESN'T have a crazy amount of epic moments that not only carry the story line along famously, but made it one of the highest grossing sequels in movie history, is asinine. I mean, Yoda lifting the X-wing out of that slimy mud hole, COME ON!!!!! I don't particularly care for ALOT of TPM (Tattoine makes me sleepy, even thought that's the epic discovery of a young pilot Anakin), but still... if it's on TV, I'm watching it lololol. It's blasphemous not to.
Because it's a desert. I know that sounds like a cop-out answer, but I doubt that you or I could locate a tribe of nomadic people's in the Sahara -- and it's quite a bit smaller than all of Tatooine. What's the likelihood that he's going to run into those Jawas? Pretty low if you ask me. If it had been only a few days since they had taken Shmi, I might have conceded to your argument, but it's been almost a month, and I doubt that traces of her capture will be left. Also, you didn't address the second part of my point -- which was that Anakin was able to locate Shmi's tent on the first try. He must have used his Force senses for that. I didn't mean on Tipoca City -- I was referring to Coruscant, where Anakin and Obi-Wan were both focused on Zam Wessel, never got close to Jango, and only really had time to give him a glance before he was gone. They were caught off guard in that instance. And I'm sorry to say I won't be able to argue EU with you here (which is, unfortunately, most of your examples) so I'll have to concede your point in terms of the Expanded Universe. If we only look at the films, though, I'm not sure if that holds up. We only ever saw Mon Mothma conversing with Padme, not Anakin. I'm not saying that he necessarily "chose" Leia, merely that he arrived as the Falcon was leaving. Because his troops were unable to prevent it from leaving, Vader did the only thing available to him and reached out with the Force to see if he recognized any presences onboard. He recognized Leia, and decided to give chase. The Rebel transports, as far as the film indicates, had already escaped. As far as we saw in the film, only individual pilots and fighters were left, so Luke and Leia are the highest priority targets here. If Vader's unable to get Luke, I can see him going after Leia. Even if he found the unit Luke is with or his call sign, that's not going to help him locate his son. Luke split off from the main group, so this information is a dead end and it would be pointless to show it within the context of the film. And if he did get CCTV tapes from Hoth station, he might have seen Luke interacting with Han and Leia. Han's ship is the Millennium Falcon -- so there you go, now Vader has a reason to chase the Falcon since he knows Luke's friends are onboard. I'm not laughing at you or your point here, just to be clear. But when I read that, I couldn't help but read it in AOTC Obi-Wan's voice. Seriously, I can totally imagine Obi-Wan saying something like this. Really? I must have missed the scene where an officer reports that they've failed to capture any rebels. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. They certainly could have captured Rebel fighters during the battle or as the individual snub fighters attempted to escape. Unless I'm mistaken, there's no indication in the film that everyone got away. And I think you're overlooking the fact that Vader isn't, himself, the Empire. He can delegate interrogations to others and get information. If one of his officers reports information concerning Luke -- such as who might be good to use as bait, there's no reason for Vader not to utilize this intelligence to his advantage. Of course Vader isn't watching the movie with us, but that doesn't mean that every single one of his actions is available to us either. He can do things off-screen. I mean, he must. Things like Palpatine's plan in ROTJ rely entirely on his off-screen actions. Let me clarify what I meant. Your particular complaint seems odd to me because it asks for clarification of Vader's motives and information network. However, I think you are looking for something that is simply not possible for this film -- a change in perspective. Luke, Leia, and Han are our perspective characters in this film. We experience the plot as they do. When they're being chased by Vader, they have no way of knowing how he the information he did or what he might do with them -- they can only hope to escape. We, as the audience then, share their ignorance in this matter. There's no reason to explore Vader's motivations (at least for now). He's not a viewpoint character, he's the flat-out villain, there to stir up trouble for our heroes. It would be ungainly to try to explore his every minute action when he isn't the focus of this film. It's reminds me of when people want TPM to go more in-depth about the Trade Federation's motives. That's not really important to the story that Lucas is trying to tell -- one that revolves around Padme, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anakin. The man characters of TPM are ignorant of Sidious and so the Trade Federation's primary role is simply to antagonize them. I'm not saying that Vader must have sensed Leia's presence on the Falcon. That's just one explanation. He could have also obtained the information from an interrogation of a captured Rebel or probed Luke's consciousness (as Yoda did). There's a plethora of possible explanations and mine certainly could be wrong. But I think it would be unwieldy to incorporate into the film because that's not what the story is about. It's not a plot hole in the sense that it's impossible to think of an explanation. But it's left to the viewer to fill in the blanks because it isn't integral to the story from the perspective of Luke, Han, and Leia. I guess that's what I mean when I say I find your dissatisfaction with this aspect peculiar -- the film isn't told from Vader's side, so his motivations and actions are going to be presented into how they threaten our heroes. He's not the main attraction here. The instances with the Death Star plans and Leia's interrogation are told from the protagonists perspective -- it's crucial to understanding the what they are going to do/going through. The Emperor's "I have foreseen it" is utilized as a threat -- to let the audience know that a trap is being established, but the movie doesn't spend time describing just how Palpatine let the information leak. It's enough to let us know that the threat to the Rebellion is built upon Palpatine's manipulation. I guess that's what I'm getting at. We see the film entirely as to how it relates to our heroes. When villains are establishing threats, it is important to show this, but when they're just information gathering, it's an aside, and not really relevant to our audience perspective, which is that of Luke, Leia, and Han. Also, I'm not trying to contest your dissatisfaction of the film. If this point really bothers you, I likely won't be able to persuade you to see otherwise. The reason why I'm arguing with your point is because I think to incorporate the changes you'd like, it would make the film weaker, not stronger (in my opinion) by removing the focus from our trio.
In what world is "Why have you been chasing them for the last hour?" asking for an explanation of each and every component. It would seem like it's the most basic possible question the film could answer. EDIT: Grah, curses. Well, I'll probably run out of edit time before I can respond, Piett.
I would say, in answer to your question: because the audience already knows why Han and Leia are important and worth of being chased by Vader -- they are Luke's friends. And that the films show enough circumstantial evidence to prove that Vader has the capacity to know this/gain such information in addition to wanting to capture Leia for her role as Rebel Leader anyway. What I'm saying is that a scene in which Vader learns that Luke will come running to rescue Han and Leia tells the audience nothing we don't already know. All it tells us is that the villain now knows something about the heroes. But because the film is told from the heroes' perspective, this information isn't relevant to their situation. Their immediate problem is how to get away from Vader, not how he found out his information. The way I see it, villains get more leeway. We're experiencing the journey with the heroes, so we have to be with them every step of the way. For villains though, which exist primarily as threats, it's enough that it is plausible that they would have a way to get a hold of that information. Breaking away from our trio's character perspective, I think, would hurt the film. That's just my opinion on the matter, but, there you go. (And I hope you were addressing me with that question because if not I'm going to feel like a complete doofus. )
Well, let's start with the opening scroll of TESB. Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters led by Luke Skywalker has established a new secret base on the remote ice world of Hoth. The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space.... So...the Empire wants to crush the last remnants of the rebellion, which are led by young Skywalker, who Vader is "obsessed" with finding. Vader would obviously know that Cpt. Solo and Princess Leia were also key figures in this rebellion, and he'd obviously be familiar with the Falcon. Still no problems I can see --- Vader sees a high value target and pursues it. Perhaps it has Luke aboard, perhaps not. We get the answer on Cloud City when Lando explains it to Han and Leia. Han (referring to the torture scene): They didn't even ask me any questions. Leia: Vader wants us all dead. Lando: He doesn't want you at all. He's after someone called, uh, uh....Skywalker. Leia: Luke?! Lando: Lord Vader set a trap for him. Leia: And we're the bait!? Lando: Well... Han: Perfect. You set us up real good didn't you, my friend. So did Vader think Luke was onboard the MF after it left Hoth? It wouldn't matter. Not only was the MF a high-level target of the rebellion, but more importantly -- Vader knew that if he could capture Luke's friends, and inflict pain on them, Skywalker would follow. And that's exactly what happened. He captured Han, tortured him, and then sat back and waited. Yoda explicitly warns Luke about not falling into Vader's trap. Luke: Will they die? Yoda: Difficult to tell. Always in motion is future. Luke: I must go to them. Yoda: If you leave now, help them you could, but -- you will destroy all for which they have fought. And later... Yoda: You must not go. Luke: And sacrifice Han and Leia?! Yoda: If you honor what they fight for --- Yes. Luke goes anyways, even after Kenobi's spirit appears and warns him as well. In any event, Vader knew that capturing the Falcon would get him a shot at Luke, whether he was on it or not.
Vader's intentions are also made clear in his conversation with the group of bounty hunters. Vader: There will be a substantial reward for the one who finds the MF. You are free to use any means necessary --- but I want them alive. **turns to Fett and sticks his finger in his face** Vader: No disintegrations. Fett: As you wish. Again....a dead Han and Leia do Vader no good. He "wants that ship, not excuses" and the people onboard because it's the key to getting Luke --- whether Luke is actually on it or not.
She didn't have much place else to go. Her home planet was destroyed. And she certainly couldn't go back to the Imperial Senate, since the Emperor dissolved it in ANH. And she couldn't even return to Coruscant as a civilian, as her cover had been blown as a leading member of the Rebellion. She was a prime target now. Leia didn't have any choice but to stick with the group that offered the most protection, just like the rest of them. At Hoth, they were on the run, and it was probably viewed as a temporary hideout at best.
Wrong on every word. On Dagobah, we learn a great deal about Luke, and we get a great deal of information about the Jedi that is relevant to the rest of the trilogy --- and even relevant to the PT, even if it a lot of it was mucked up in the PT. On Dagobah, we learn that Luke isn't the hot-shot he thinks he is. We learn that he has a long way to go before he can become a Jedi. And most importantly -- we learn he's dangerous. Because if Luke can't control himself and discipline his mind, there's a chance he'll turn to the Dark Side. The scene at the Cave illustrates this perfectly, without saying one word. As for the Jedi and the Force --- really, Dagobah is the only time that we as an audience get more than just cursory exposure to the Force and how a Jedi should employ it for the benefit of himself and others. Nowhere else in any of the other five films is the Force explained in much detail. It is here, and only here. That's the great failure of the PT. Not completely wrong, but you do completely miss the entire point. Yoda explains what Luke should be in order to become a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally. Luke hears the lessons -- he absorbs the information -- but he doesn't truly learn them yet. Luke: Master, moving around stones is one thing. This....this is totally different. Yoda: No. No different -- only different in your mind. **after Yoda proves him wrong and demonstrates his point.... Luke: I, I don't believe it. Yoda: That is why you failed. See, Luke is still too inexperienced to go running off fighting Vader. And that's precisely why Yoda (and then Ben) plead with him not to leave Dagobah and go to confront Vader. They know his training is not complete, and they know, one way or another, he'll suffer for it. And without mastering the skills they've exposed him to, Luke is even more dangerous and vulnerable to the Dark Side and Vader's temptations. It's the worst case scenario for Yoda and Kenobi, hence Yoda's line, "Told you, I did. Now, matters are worse." You should probably stick to Attack of the Clones.
Vader has plenty of reasons to hide his investigation- primarily that he is sizing Luke up as his own apprentice. And yes, it's fair to think that the Emperor knows about it anyway. It seems to me that there's more going on in this conversation than you give it credit for. "I know you know I know this already, but let's talk about it as if we're thinking about it for the first time". Vader doesn't want to talk as if he's been scheming to turn Luke for a while. The Emperor doesn't want to reveal that he already knows that. The EU between ANH and ESB is ridiculously congested, and provides several examples of Luke, Han and/or Leia showing concern for each other beyond the call of duty, and in front of Imperial agents. But we can call the EU irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion- otherwise I would just cite Splinter of the Mind's Eye, where Vader personally witnesses the depth of Leia and Luke's relationship, and have done with it. I think you overstate the difficulty of uncovering this kind of information, in any case. Luke's off-duty activities are actually easier to keep tabs on than his official missions. It's easier to pay someone to observe events in an Alliance mess hall than it is to retrieve details of a classified operation. Well he has agency- more than Beru- it's just that his actions repeatedly fail. There's something Sisyphean about all his efforts.
You haven't watched the current, official, edition of this film, then. If you had bothered to actually read what I was saying, you would have noticed my assessment that it doesn't need to be spelled out. If you won't see what's right in front of you, then you're just being obstinate. Fans - they're too stubborn /LM
Hyperspace travel doesn't take as long as you think it does. We should be at Alderaan about 0200 hours. This will be a day long remembered. It has seen the end of Kenobi and it will soon see the end of the Rebellion.
But if Anakin can use force tracking Shmi, there is no reason he can not use the Force to know that Luke is not on Millennium Falcon, or why he does not use the Force to sense where Luke is since Luke doesn't leave Hoth until Vader leave Hoth to chase Leia. We all know Vader use Han and Leia to lure Luke, but why would he do it when he have the equle chance to catch Luke? Though I can see OP's point, I have no problem with the ESB.
If he truly had an equal chance to catch Luke, he would be going after his X-wing. Given the fact that he doesn't, he probably doesn't know which X-wing is Luke's. He does know, though, that the Millennium Falcon, which is the only ship of its kind in the Rebel fleet, belongs to Han. That is a guess, yes, but an educated one, given the fact that he deliberately uses Luke's friends as bait. Vader is deliberate /LM
No... There is another. She does indeed have the Force, and it is stated in ROTJ. Whether she is Jedi trained or not is irrelevant. But I'm done feeding the troll.
