OT Empire Strikes Back Is Not Enjoyable

No, it isn't.

The Force is no more utilitarian in the PT than it is in the OT. As Obi-Wan says, it partially controls your actions, but it obeys your commands.

The Force is also no more externalized in the PT than it is in the OT. In the OT it is described as an energy field created by all living things which surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. You'd be hard pressed to argue that the Force is not externalized based on either that description or the similar one in TESB, which insists that the Force is between the rock and the X-wing.

The "strong implication" that you apparently picked up - that Force use is generally available to anyone through training - is supported nowhere in the OT. In fact, the often forgotten ROTJ argues against it, and shows Force potential being genetically inherited in a family bloodline. Also known as "governed through a genetic anomaly".

No, it isn't. It can't be, because as previously stated, Yoda does not "present the Force" in the PT. Thus his presentation in the OT stands because there is nothing in the PT to diverge from it. What Yoda does say in the PT is entirely consistent with the OT. As one example, what he says to Anakin in ROTS reflects what he calls the "way of the Force" in ROTJ. As another, what he says about the dark side in TPM is essentially the same as what Obi-Wan says about it in TESB.

What do you want me to do with this? I appreciate your effort here, really. But in all earnestness, I can't respond to it either way. No one can, really as it basically approaches a non-falsifiable argument. Everything is either them faking it, or an indication that they are faking it the rest of the time. If for no other reason than the audience couldn't tell this apart from a completely sincere performance, I'm disinclined to believe that the average viewer is supposed to understand that this is what's happening. Again, though, I don't feel like we can address this further either way. I'll keep thinking, though, and promise to come back to it if something else occurs to me in favor or against.

On the other hand, I think you are overstating its ease. What is Subcommondante Marcos's real identity? Where is Joseph Kony? Why was even the US surprised at the content of some of Osama Bin Laden's late writings, even when they had successfully pinpointed his location and killed him? Figuring out the structure and inter-personal relationships of the rebel groups is one of the hardest intelligences tasks of all, because it requires extremely deep penetration with moles. In some respects, that's the whole game. Also, understand that we're not just talking about finding who Luke's casual acquaintances are. We're trying to figure out who he cares for so deeply that he'd sacrifice his life for them. That's incredibly intimate knowledge, and not something I'd call easy to obtain under any circumstances.

But, as zc said, a lot of people on your side are arguing that Vader has some sort of Force Homing Beacon power. If so, it shouldn't be a problem to find Luke on the surface of Hoth. If you don't believe that, good enough. But one would think he should at least make some sort of effort to look for Luke. He doesn't. He just goes after the Falcon right away, completely ignoring his supposed target.

Charlie and eht, I want to get to you guys, but first I wanted to welcome the newcomer. So next time, sorry. But I should be all caught up after my next post. Thanks everybody for bearing with me for this confusing 48 hours or so.

@Chilla

Welcome! I commend you for even trying to read through any of this. A thread this long ( in both post length and number) must be daunting. You make some great points, so I'm happy ot have you, and let me jump right in.

1) That's possible, yeah. For being a simpler motive, I actually think it has better chance of being true than some of the more complex theories others have tried. But while I think that works as an initial motivation, I don't think it explains why he took things as far as he did.

2) We've been having some big discussions about this. If you jump in now, or read of my few previous posts, you can see some objections to the Leia theory. In short what you are explaining seems to be a common misconception. If you look at ESB on Youtube, you'll see that Han and Leia were never really chased by stormtroopers. It just cuts between them running and the stormtroopers walking. But they aren't shooting at all, and there's no real chase happening. Vader and the troopers don't even really catch up until the Falcon is taking off and the doors are already closed. So he didn't have a good way of knowing Leia was there, in my opinion.

3) Again, a good enough theory. Some other people have brought this up. It does make sense to pick the low-hanging fruit. But I think this stops becoming an easy or convenient option when they go into the asteroid field. So why keep chasing them then?

According to who? You? Where are you getting this from? Militaries of the earth? If yes, then earth militaries =/= SW Empire military.
Or you making this up? If you so, what are you credentials? Are you somehow a military expert?

Why are you placing a limit to the number of reasons the Empire would chase after the Millenium falcon?
The millenium falcon helped destroy the best weapon the Empire had and killed the million people that were on the base. It's pilot is pretty much considered a terrorist or military enemy. Why wouldn't they chase it?

Next, your assuming that the empire as a whole wants this ship, but the one giving orders to keep chasing it is Vader. He probably has some kind of vendetta against this ship or something. I mean it did attack Vader in the Battle of Yavin.

You clearly seem to have a strong objection. But I was trying to ask for clarification. So please tell us, what other way could you conceive of a target having "high value" from a military standpoint? Do you have any examples of this? Finally, how does this new concept of military value justify chasing Han Solo in this particular situation?

First, why from a 'military standpoint'? There are many motivations throughout a work that make certain actions take place. It doesn't necessarily have to be a military reason.
Second, Vader is the one who mostly wanted the ship, so it could be a personal reason.
So lastly, the M. Falcon could have a "high value" to Vader because it attacked him and helped blow up the most important base the Empire had during ANH.

From the script:

INTERIOR: HOTH -- REBEL BASE -- ICE CORRIDOR

Imperial troops run through the base corridors. Vader
surveys the place. A huge chunk falls, almost hitting him, but
he calmly, purposefully, continues around it.

Shortly thereafter:

INTERIOR: REBEL BASE -- MAIN HANGAR

More stormtroopers run into the hangar, closely followed by
Vader. Hearing the loud roar of the Millennium Falcon's
engines, Vader looks toward the main hangar doors just in time
to see the Falcon lift up and disappear outside the cave.

This is also what happens in the film.
Seems to me like Vader just so happens to catch sight of the Falcon. Most likely, he is looking for Luke. I also believe that he senses a disturbance in the Force but can't pinpoint its exact location.





Stormtroopers hate falcons
/LM

On the contrary, I think it's the most logical interpretation of the scene and its subtext. I can offer three pieces of supporting evidence.

1. Vader has already indicated a marked preoccupation for Luke out of all the rebels ("I'm sure Skywalker is with them"), suggesting that he is the highest-priority target. Yet his first reaction to the Emperor is to dismiss Luke out of hand ("he's just a boy"). This, in my opinion, is a fairly clear signifier to the audience that Vader's words in this scene should not be taken at face value.

2. Vader's later duplicity in asking Luke to join him is indication enough that he would be insincere in a conversation with the Emperor. He is plotting to stab the man in the back- why should we trust anything he said to his face?

3. The moment the Emperor suggests Luke's destruction, Vader immediately counters with the possibility of preservation via conversion to the dark side. We know from the same film that the Emperor considers Luke a serious personal threat ("he could destroy us" and "you can destroy the Emperor, he has foreseen this") yet he accepts this alternative strategy extremely readily. I am disinclined to believe that the average viewer is meant to think that the Emperor was really considering this for the first time. We already know from clues 1 and 2 that Vader isn't.

Not easy, no. But easier than obtaining the details of his classified missions, which is the point I was making there.

Bin Laden's writings may not have been known to us, and obviously his location wasn't known for a very long time, but that is a different type of information from what we were discussing. We're talking purely about the identity of those close to him, and most of those people were already long since known to US Intelligence. There were no surprises, for example, among those he was found with: his brother, his wives, his children, his most trusted courier, the courier's brother. He didn't have many non-relatives with him because he was running a incredibly small operation (if you can even call it that).

As for Kony and Marcos, well, they're not even close to a priority for major intelligence organisations.

The Rebel Alliance, by contrast, is the single major threat to peace and stability. It is no mere guerrilla group. There are thousands of people inside Echo Base alone, just as there were thousands at Yavin, so I find it incredible that the Galactic Empire, with all its resources, would never have been able, through any means, to uncover information along the lines of: "Skywalker sure spends a lot of time with Captain Solo and the Princess." Combine that with what Vader already knows- that Luke is willing to take crazy risks to rescue Alliance leadership- and you have a more than adequate rationale for going after the Falcon. Yes, it might turn out that Luke doesn't actually care enough to come after them. But the Falcon is the only target that can currently be pursued, so what does Vader have to lose by taking the chance, except a few fighters?

Thank you for the kind welcome! And I commend you for the way you are handling this discussion - with respect for everyone and their opinions. I was a bit worried this would deteriorate into a heated discussion with lots of insults thrown around, but that is not the case. I really enjoy reading these posts and considering the different ideas.


I always assumed that there was someone on the Falcon that the Imperials really wanted, which was why they went to so much trouble to get the Falcon Since Vader so easily parted with Han by handing him to Lando, I assumed that he wanted Leia. Now, you have mentioned that he might not know that she's on board. Possibly he confused her with Luke because he sensed a Force-presence. But I think in that case Vader would have acted later, f.e. by making Leia his apprentice when he has captured her. Or he might have caught on that Leia is related to Luke. However, none of that happens (the latter part only happened in Ep 6).

My theory is Leia's impact on the Rebellion, as mentioned in my previous post. Why would the Imperials know she's on the Falcon?
a) Someone saw her while chasing them. After all, the Imperials were close enough to shoot at 3PO.
b) The Imperials overheard the comm transmission between Han and the last transporter: "We can't make it to you. I'll get the Princess out in the Falcon." (more or less like this. Sorry, never watched the English original dub )
Not unlikely, since the Imperials were already very close. I'm sure they could have picked up the signal. Remains the question if they could have encrypted it. But the Empire is supposed to have access to better technology and more resources, so...possible.

I find this thread ironic. One person expresses his/her displeasure of "EMPIRE STRIKES BACK" and the majority of many others are bashing him for his tastes. This same kind of argument has occurred constantly over the PT movies, but this is the first time I have encountered one over any OT movie. Very interesting.

A very nice summary. But again, what does that actually say? There is an unseen spiritual/supernatural component to the universe that must be taken into account? That's nice, but it's a pretty much universal belief among religions. It's arguably a necessary point to differentiate any metaphysical framework from atheism. It doesn't really tell us anything more than Vader's line about how the power of the Force is greater than the power of the Death Star. We didn't get any new information, and we didn't really get anything obvious at all. Just an almost reflexively self-evident point about what it means to be part of a religion. Yoda just uses a bunch of pretty well-worn turns of phrase to express it.

But my contention is that this isn't necessarily an "understandable" hunch at all, unless he actually managed to gather an impressive amount of intelligence about Luke. We'll save that for the ongoing discussion with Winged though, since he's debating basically the same point. You two can both jump in to reply to me on that part.

You seem to have missed my point, actually. You are hand-waving my entire concern. I'm trying to point out to you that he doesn't actually have any "means at his disposal" to know this at all.

@Arawn Fenn/@HighSpendingJedi

Something of a spin-off debate, but I have to agree with RecoverySummer. Throughout the OT, the suggestion is that being a Jedi has fallen out of favor because it wasn't really that good in the first place, and the rest of the galaxy moved on. Han has no trouble wielding a lightsaber effectively--he just prefers his blaster. Likewise, Kenobi just sort of announces Luke should train like his father. There's not any sort of apprehension about whether he may not be Force sensitive. Keep in mind that even if Force sensitivity is entirely genetically heritable, and this was a dominant trait, there's still a chance that Luke didn't inherit it. Usage patterns are also starkly different. In the OT, Jedi operate largely as normal humans with laser swords; Force usage is sparing, and it is discussed mostly in terms of personal spiritual implications. In the PT, the Force becomes a very prominent part of the combat armamentarium, with a stunning array of superhuman acrobatics, and abilities. That's a real change. I also don't think you're really using "externalized" in the same way RecoverySummer was.

Well apologies, I should explain. I wasn't trying to say military value is the only one possible. Rather, the place where you jumped in was my specific response to the claim by some posters that Han was wanted for his military value. I was just trying to respond to the scenario they proposed. As to your new suggestion, I don't think the film supports it. If Vader was that angry about Han, why did he just give him away to Boba Fett?

Sure he saw the Falcon. But why would he automatically assume Luke was on that ship, as opposed to another, or just somewhere on Hoth generally? That brings us back to the questions I opened the thread with. Why would you assume any connection between Luke and the Falcon?

I guess I see the conversation very differently. What you see as mutual evasions, I see as evolution towards a common conclusion. The Emperor states Luke is a threat. Vader agrees, but qualifies the remark by saying that Luke has not yet realized his full potential, where he might destroy the Empire. The Emperor agrees, noting that his concern is preventing him from reaching that potential. The Emperor is not demanding an assassination, but just stating a need for a solution of some sort. Vader proposes turning Luke, as he himself was turned. The Emperor then agrees this a good plan. Otherwise, to me, the conversation is very bizarre. If it was Vader's intent to downplay the threat from Luke, why would he have, literally one sentence before, agreed to the assessment that he was an "enemy" and "a great disturbance in the Force." It almost brings to mind Dave Chappelle's "Rick James" skit, for the speed with which a single speaker blatantly contradicts himself.

As for point 2, I don't see it's relevance. Yes, he plans to use Luke against the Emperor, but why does he need to be dishonest in this conversation? It gains him nothing. He has perfectly legitimate reasons to have investigated the guy who blew up the Death Star and is a "great disturbance in the Force." Hiding it just seems to be lying for the sake of lying. Alternatively, though, have you considered that his offer in ESB was never actually sincere? When he's not trying to take an emotional sledgehammer to Luke, and is just talking to him in ROTJ, he doesn't seem like he ever seriously contemplated betraying the guy. It seems entirely possible to me that Vader just chose the pitch he thought Luke was most likely to buy.

Grah. Sorry to do this, but I'm out of time. So I'll stop in the middle of this post, and finish with my next.

I wouldn't call that a suggestion intended by the filmmakers, because I see no basis for it. In fact, the audience, through Luke, seems to be encouraged to believe otherwise. I find it highly unlikely that the whole endpoint of Luke's arc, becoming a Jedi, is intended to be the attainment of something that wasn't really that good in the first place.

On the contrary, being a Jedi has fallen out of favor because the Jedi were hunted down by the Empire.

Han's not a Force-sensitive. As such, his preference for blasters hardly implies the Jedi weren't all that good in the first place. He wouldn't benefit from Force-aided blaster deflection unless, in fact, anyone could be trained in Jedi skills - which is still a myth despite the circular reasoning at work here.

Yet Luke's still the genetic offspring of a powerful Jedi, as opposed to a totally random person. What's needed to serve as indication of the "anyone can train as a Jedi" theory just isn't there. And we know that Kenobi and Yoda, after having been present at his birth, have been watching over him, from a distance, for years. They're probably not completely groping in the dark when it comes to assessment of his Force potential. But now we come back once again to the always overlooked ROTJ, which is part of the OT. It is possible that midichlorians do not behave in complete accordance with the real-world rules of Mendelian genetics. ROTJ's dialogue does not actually seem to support the idea that there was a chance Luke or Leia might not have inherited Force potential:

The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him.

You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time you'll learn to use it as I have. The Force is strong in my family. My father has it... I have it... and... my sister has it.

In neither of these quotes does the phrasing allow for the alleged possibility that Luke or Leia might not have turned out as Force-sensitives.

In the case of TESB Vader, for example, they're similar.

We see some acrobatic feats in the OT, while the PT largely reflects the result of an out-of-universe technological progression ( CGI ). But now we're talking about a presentation of Force use rather than of the Force itself. It's a question of quantity rather than quality.

I have never assumed that Vader assumes that Luke is on the Falcon. It's an intriguing thought, but all the film suggests is that he wanted to capture Luke's friends in order to lure Luke into a trap. My conclusion must be that he gave up trying to find Luke on Hoth and went after the one ship he knew would be of use to him. He knows the name of Han's ship, after all, so he should know who's piloting it - and since he is so adamant about capturing Han and then goes on to torture him, he must also know that he and Luke are close friends.

To put it simply: Vader knows that Han, Captain of the infamous Millennium Falcon, is Luke's friend, so he goes after him to get to Luke.





Han - he's a friend
/LM

Well, if everybody can use the Force, there is no reason that Obi-Wan spend twenty year waiting for Luke grow up to be the Jedi's new hope, he and Yoda can just train a army of Jedi to take down Vader. Or are you tell me Obi-Wan is just cruel enough to polt the perfect revenge by making sure Vader get killed by his own son?

It's not the best, but in my opinion it's miles better than any of the newer films!

I don't agree. I like "ATTACK OF THE CLONES" just as much as I do "EMPIRE STRIKES BACK". And I think that "REVENGE OF SITH" is close second to both films.

Sorry everyone. I'm going to be swamped through the end of this week, but I do intend to get back to everyone.

TESB is one of the best movies I've ever seen, Star Wars or not. I'm sorry, but you are missing out.

Yeah, Empire Strikes Back has everything that is good about Star Wars. The dialogue, atmosphere, mythos and dramatic delivery are at a level not matched by any of the other movies in the series. From the opening crawl to the final moments of the conclusion, it delivers on all counts. The ending rules. And the characters are explored at a level not reached by the other chapters, I don't see how any Star Wars fan could not like this installment.

It's different from the others. That's how. I love it just as much as I love the other episodes, but at the end of the day, it is the least Star Warsy part of Star Wars.





Stars - they fight
/LM