Discussion in 'Expanded Universe' started by AdmiralNick22, Mar 21, 2012.
I don't have any of these sources...
Some of the material can be found online, such as WOTC's former SW online articles (although you'll probably have to use a site like the Internet Archive to view them now).
Yeah, I know, the Internet Archives are really only way to find any of this stuff at this point. I really got missed the boat on a lot of this stuff, like RPG and miniatures, and just don't want to give up on the Viscount dueling an Executor-class during the Imperial holdouts campaign prior to Vector Prime. Its been so long since I read NJO, that I don't know what Vector Prime and Destiny's Way said on the matter, beyond the obvious things like the Viscount being twice as long as the Mediator. I also never got into RPG material, but Scourge and Tempest Feud, and WEG material have really peaked my interest.
The problem is that there isn't any reference to an Executor being involved in the Imperial holdout campaigns - that was based solely on an illustration (boxart, IIRC) and fan interpretations. Nothing is being lost, so to speak, because it wasn't canonical to begin with.
VP says, quite clearly, that the Viscount was only commissioned two weeks prior to the start of VP, and that the Mediator was just over half its size. DW has no mention of the Viscount.
First, RPG material starts being used IU, i.e. the Legacy era starship's armaments, and now, in this context, it means nothing because there isn't any concrete evidence, talk about a double standard.
Hm, note to self, don't bring this subject up again. I wish the Mediator was larger, but I accept the current canon. And canon changes over time too, so you never know. I wish we were still getting sourcebooks, too bad the next license holder is still just getting started.
Although as the EGTW itself notes, conflicts like the Dark Empire and Orinda (when Pellaeon deployed two Star Dreadnoughts) convinced the New Republic the dreadnought age wasn't quite over, which sounds like a good reason to accelerate Viscount production. And I know the WotC illustration was just an illustration, but too bad that can't be retconned as something from the Orinda campaign. And like many other dreadnoughts, the Dominion wasn't destroyed or defeated in a conventional way, but because Ackbar blew up an antimatter reserve nearby, so there are plenty of ways to take one down, which probably made finishing Bounty and Krakana a priority (until another galactic war started). Although it would be interesting to see how Pellaeon lost the Reaper, holding off New Republic forces, that sounds like more of a conventional loss. The Orinda campaign just sounds really interesting since its one of the few times when the New Republic probably has the clear upper hand (since Dark Empire showed the Empire still had plenty of dreadnoughts, and then after that the New Republic was on the rise... then the Vong came along and everything fell apart).
I know Wookieepedia isn't always accurate, of course, which is why I was asking anyone who had the actual sources, since I kind of doubted the CSWE would have that many details. I haven't looked through it yet, but I remember the older Encyclopedia wasn't the most detailed either. Not to mention it still had stuff like Zsinj using a Sovereign at one point, so I've heard (I think).
With Mon Cal design eventually culminating in the Scythe, I don't mind the idea of the Mediator being only "Star Destroyer" size (1-2KM) if its just very powerful. Just too bad the novels didn't bother to mention it much. Although if they made the Harbinger into one, that would be nice (the ship that Bel Iblis used for a while after the Fall of Coruscant).
And on a random note, was reading through an old novel, Specter of the Past, and just found it funny that during the big military buildup over Bothawui the Diamala sent some Nebula and Endurance class ships, so despite being part of the New Class design project that ended up forming the Fifth fleet, the Diamala got some of those ships somehow. Of course this is from a 15-year old book so it probably doesn't really count anymore, but just forgot there had been a reference to those classes at all in those books.
What I want to know is this, where does it say Salvatore wanted the Mediator-class to be 1,5 km long? Book, notes, interviews?
If anything, the novel says the Viscount was almost twice as big as the Mediator. This could refer to the volume, mass etc. Even with just length, it would still be above 1,5, since that's what Salvatore wrote in the book itself.
If the Mediator is considered a battlecruiser, could it be 2+ km long or with the firepower to match a much larger vessel? I like to think the latter, though, since it sets the stage for developing the massively armed, yet comparably tiny Scythe-class.
I want to know why it has to be 1.5 km long too. Are the writers afraid to give the New Republic anything larger than a MC80 Star Cruiser? Why do the continuity people insist that the MC80 Independence-class Star Cruiser (MC80 Home One-type) is little different than the rest of the MC80 line?
Exactly. (And I have high hopes for FFG when they do start making RPG SW books).
True, but by the time of VP the New Republic had been at peace with the Imperial Remnant for a number of years - and while they still had two Executors, so did the New Republic.
The original SWE mentioned that Zsinj had a ship called the Sovereign, and sourced COPL - which was then incorporated into the Sovereign-class entry in the CSWE. Of course, if you read COPL, you'll notice that there's no such ship mentioned - it's only mentioned in the audio adaptation... as the name of the SSD that Han destroys at Dathomir at the end (You know, the ship referred to as Iron Fist in the original book )
Agreed, that's probably the most likely class for the Harbinger.
Yep, we were discussing that a little while back. Zahn is clearly referring to the ships from BFC (and one of the only authors post-BFC to do so). Maybe the Diamalans had one of the shipyards used by REC and got some New Class ships for their SDF in exchange for using their construction yards?
So you're seeing that your earlier comment "As far as canon goes, the Mediator is over half the size of the Viscount. Does that mean Viscount the ship or Viscount the full-production class? No idea." was incorrect, as VP specifically said it was the ship Viscount?
Authorial Intent argument would be stronger if the K-Wing had not been so badly mangled from the original intent. It went from a bomber with pilots in a row, with swept and staggered wings, with a slant mounted engine to a side by side piloted bomber with straight wings, a level engine, and several gun turrets. I have issue with solid numbers and art being overruled to fit with a vague statement to preserve "authorial intent" when the opposite is already accepted.
I'm fine with Mediator being smaller, though I personally would have had it closer to 3Km like the Home One. But Viscount has several images and specific numbers for it's size, with the only contradiction being one 15 year old girl's comment. And it's not really a lazy gameplay retcon when we have the Viscount explicitly grouped with an Executor class ship at Mon Calamari, and a pair of Star defenders being considered enough to defend a system which was previously guarded by an Executor class and a number of Star Destroyers.
Nothing wrong with a backbone of 1.2-1.6 ships. The Empire is the same way, with the ISD as their backbone. But the occasional larger ship for the New Republic fits as well, with several captured Executors and the Viscount, which was a response to enemy Dreadnoughts popping up from nowhere (Intimidator, Megador, Dominion all come to mind)
Jason, you are awesome, but I think your retcon mess here has replaced the Executor length argument with a Viscount length argument.
By that logic, then cover art should be canon too.
Okay, let me rephrase that, RPG material starts being used IU, i.e. the Legacy starship's armaments, and now RPG means nothing because an author supposedly intended something, when there isn't even a statement from the author on the matter.
No, since the Viscount and others of her class were equals from the first class description in Starships of the Galaxy 2007. There still isn't any fixed size for the Mediator-class, or any fixed idea that Salvatore had. Either it follows more than half the size of the Viscount-class or the Viscount only.
There's reference to his authorial intent, but I wonder where I can find this intent, since it's referred to so often on these boards. In an interview? It certainly isn't found in the books.
And if we want to go with the thought that the Mediator-class was an update on the MC80/MC90-line, then it'd be like saying the Imperial-class is an update on the Victory-class and it was almost twice as long.
It says explicitly in Vector Prime that the Viscount - not the class, but the physical ship - is almost twice the size of the Mediator. And the Viscount has been defined as 3 km long in the EGTW. It's as simple as that. That description was the sole justification for the 8.5 km length, and after EGTW suddenly it's vague and mysterious?
I am curious why you're going on about "authorial intent" - the only "intent" that I referred to is with the Mediator, based upon the battle description from Agents of Chaos. If you're referring to the "authorial intent" of the Viscount, ask Zeta1127 - he's the one that said Salvatore intended the Viscount to be bigger than 3 km. I'm curious about that myself.
Yep, and that cover art has no context for what is happening. It's more likely that if we consider that a canon event, the Ex in the picture is actually Lusankya or Guardian in formation with Viscount. For that matter, it doesn't even have to be around the time of VP - one could argue it takes place at any time after the Yuuzhan Vong War, including during the Second GCW.
Something of the significance of an Imperial holdout with an Ex, if not mentioned in the Atlas, would've certainly been mentioned in the EGTW. Between the Imperial Civil War and the destruction of Byss, that seemed to clear the deck of most of the "big ships". A slugfest between one of the larger Viscounts and an Ex during the Second GCW would be pretty cool, though.
Little saddened (although I realize that it was a space issue) we didn't get more info on the NJO-early Legacy ships since the RPG hadn't covered virtually anything about it - oddballs like the Rejuvenators, the Stridents, the Proficients, the late-era VSDs, the Corellian Dreadnaughts, etc.
Yeah, that era desperately needs a sourcebook or three covering it. There's simply so much background missing from the era that no general guide can make up for it. With all the other stuff the big guides have to cover, they can only scratch the surface, and between the desire not to "tie the hands" of the people working on the ongoing stuff and crunch time kicking in when the authors are on the end of the book, we tend to get even less on the newest eras than we could.
I can't wait for the RPG to get up and running so we can get some kind of a shot at a Yuuzhan Vong War Sourcebook, a Second Galactic Civil War Sourcebook, and maybe a Galactic Alliance Sourcebook to cover play outside those two wars and set up more general stuff about the era, maybe handle new information from FOTJ and DNT.
As much as I hate to say it, Havac, it's going to be a long wait for sourcebooks - it'll be a year, minimum, just for the core books to come out... and FFG hasn't mentioned anything yet, unfortunately.
As blackmyron said, I think sadly it will be quite a while if we see that. But would love to see such sourcebooks farming the eras and adding to them. Things like the New Jedi Order/Invasion Campaign Guide (covering the end of the NR, Vong etc), Dark Nest Trilogy Campaign Guide (Killiks, Chiss and newly formed GA), Legacy of the Force Campaign Guide (showing the Second GCW, Confederation) and Fate of the Jedi Campaign Guides (maybe details look into the GA government and forces in this one plus other Force sensitive orders) could really expand and develop the eras.
My point to authorial intent is that when Vector Prime was written in 1999, the only canonical length for a Mon Cal cruiser was 1.2km. I am not going to argue with folks about Home One, cause it is obvious that LFL still will not settle the issue. My point is that all guides out about EU sources at the time of VP listed the very largest Mon Cal cruiser as 1,255m (MC90 cruiser). In VP, R.A. Salvatore refers to the Mediator-class as the following: "an updated and more heavily armed and armored version of the Mon Calamari Star Cruiser". There is nothing in that statement that makes the vessel a 8.5km battle cruiser. Anyone trying to grasp for straws in that statement is really stretching. The authors intent to the reader is clear- this ship is an updated version of the familiar Mon Cal cruisers you all know. R.A.Salvatore does the same thing with the XJ X-wing. He is pciking ships that readers can easily identify, but "updates" them so that they are not the same old ships used two decades earlier by the Rebellion.
Now, the Viscount is interesting, in that R.S. Salvatore makes a point of using the text to point out that a Star Defender is twice the length of the "updated" Mon Cal cruiser we see earlier in book. It was obviously important to Salvatore to distinguish the difference between the "updated" Mon Cal cruiser Mediator and "twice the size" Star Defender Viscount. It shows that the author, when intending for a vessel to be signficantly different for the reader, makes a point to describe the vessels length. Period.
Now, sources can and do change, as we see in the case of Starship Battles. In an effort to give the Alliance faction a SSD-analog, they decided to make the Viscount-class much larger. On that point, things are now set. This class of vessel is the New Republic's dreadnought analog. Which, BTW, I have no issues with, especially thanks to Jason Fry & Paul Urquart making a brilliant retcon that is a happy compromise for fans on both sides of this debate. Let's look at the basics of their retcon:
The Viscount is a prototype vessel at 3km
The first production run Star Defenders are 17km. Known vessels include the Krakana and Bounty
The Mediator battle cruiser is half the size of the GASV Viscount, pegging her at 1.5km
Now, making the Mediator-class 1.5km keeps in line with the trend (at least until the Legacy-era) with Mon Cal cruiser variants being larger and more powerful. We have a 15 year gap between the introduction of the 1,255m MC90 battle cruiser and the 1,500m Mediator-class. The vessel is 17% longer, "updated and more heavily armed and armored", and the NRDF's new Mon Cal warship. It also fits into the established and well shown fact that the NRDF has always focused it main combatants & backbone on warships in the 1.2 - 1.6km range. This fits with the various IU statements about the New Republic not focusing heavily on massive warships.
I frankly don't understand why Imperial leaning fans who love multi-kilometer behemoths (which again, I am fine with and make sense given the Empire's doctrine) are always so eager to impose a similar view on the New Republic and Galactic Alliance, DESPITE the heavy evidence showing quite the opposite. The New Republic has some Star Dreadnoughts and 17km Star Defenders (which you can argue probably have more than just 2 units). However, that doesn't mean that suddenly the New Republic said "gosh, we need something to fill the large gaps with". If anything, the New Republic and the Galactic Alliance used dreadnoughts far, far differently than the Empire. They were mobile headquarters, cornerstones for shipyard or capital defense, and long range mobile artillery. Which is GREAT, cause no one says that all large ships have to be used in the manner the Empire used them.
This will be my last post regarding this matter. I am content to wait for Jason's notes and let the matter be FINALLY settled there.