PT If you were Mace Windu, which three Jedi would you take with you to confront Palpatine?

I'm not even sure what this means. Anakin isn't capable of rational thought? This is just nonsense. Anakin is plenty capable of rational thought and demonstrates this many times throughout the prequels, he just decides not to use it when he doesn't want to.

Anakin was just under a lot of stress and self-imposed pressure and handled it very poorly. It wasn't insanity, it wasn't mental illness, it was just the very poor decisions of a very flawed person. That's about as nice as I can say it.

On this I agree with you.

As far as Anakin being rational (and I'm talking to everyone who has been saying this, not just CT)--are you all saying that Anakin is normally a rational person? I'm surprised that anyone sees him that way. He may be capable of making rational decisions on the battlefield, but there are plenty of people who can do their jobs well but completely misfire on all cylinders when it comes to personal decisions. And on occasion Anakin behaved irrationally even in battle ("I'm taking him NOW!").

Maybe "incapable" is the wrong term to use, but to say that "A rational person would have never behaved the way Anakin did and therefore Anakin chose to think irrationally" is grossly oversimplifying what happened IMO.

And given Anakin's experiences combined with his personality type, it makes sense that the stress would push him into insanity. I'm not sure why I'm getting such a pushback here either, unless you all think I'm suggesting that he isn't responsible for his actions because he wasn't in his right mind--and I've never once suggested that.

I don't remember mentioning this and I don't see how it is relevant. Anakin, like everyone, is rational at times and irrational at others.

You said you disagreed with Anakin being capable of rational thought and that he was never rational even on his best days. Clearly this isn't true.

Insanity automatically diminishes responsibility, whether you explicitly state it or not.

I think what anakinfan is trying to say (she's free to correct me if I'm mistaken however) is not that Anakin is incapable of rational thought but that he has very poor emotional control. The man's never really learned how to dampen his emotions and think cooly and logically. Look at the fireplace scene with Padme in AOTC -- he knows that they are prohibited from being together, but he feels so strongly towards her that it overrides logic.

I think the situation in regards to confronting Palpatine is an example, yet again, of Anakin's emotional responses overriding his rationality. Rationally, he knows that Palpatine should be taken out of office and arrested (hence why he told the Jedi in the first place) but his fear for Padme overwhelms his good sense and so he goes after them to make sure Palpatine doesn't die.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Anakin is "insane" -- certainly not according to a clinical definition. But I would say that he's emotionally compromised. He's not able to step back from his emotional response and calmly evaluate the situation.

The conversation in the last several posts has been that Anakin was normally a rational person but chose to behave irrationally in the middle of ROTS. My argument is that his behaving irrationally was not exactly unusual for him.

But PiettsHat put it better. Anakin is a highly emotional person and that part of him overrides his rationality. And people with that type of personality, can't just turn off the emotional side like a switch. And that's exactly what Palpatine played on. Anakin is hardly the only one to have ever had his more vulnerable aspects played upon for another's amusement.

As far as insanity diminishing responsibility, I'd say it depends. I find it far more interesting to look at why Anakin turned to the Dark Side as opposed to writing him off as just being selfish, evil, or whatever term you (general "you") want to use. Insanity is used as defense in trials in order to argue for a lighter sentence, but it's a reason, not an excuse. In this case it does not mean that Anakin was innocent.

The conversation in "A Few Good Men" comes to mind, between the lawyers defending two Marine privates who accidentally killed a fellow Marine and claimed they were just following orders to give him a "code red".

"You don't believe their story, do you? You think they ought to go to jail for the rest of their lives."

"I believe every word of their story. And I think they ought to go to jail for the rest of their lives."

I believe Palpatine purposely diminished Anakin's already-shaky mental stability. But if he were put on trial and I were on the jury, I would still vote to convict him.

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I think him being evil and selfish is the reason why he did what he did, and I don't think it's "writing him off". He is evil and he is selfish because he chooses to be, there is no "why". I don't find the "why" behind Anakin's actions at all interesting.

I don't see much of a point to all the obvious statements here. He's emotional. He has problems controlling his emotions. He wasn't acting rationally. Yeah, those are all obvious. My response is: Yeah, so? Am I supposed to care?

If you think being emotional as a reason for his actions is worth entertaining, I'm gonna have to just walk away.

Ran out of edit time:

Sorry if I was rude, but I've heard the whole irrational/emotional thing like a million times and I've never known what the point was. Maybe people should stop pointing that out, because there isn't anyone who isn't aware of it.

The point is the "why", the reasons that led up to his actions. I find it interesting to look at the multiple factors that led to Anakin's turn and wonder how the GFFA might have been different if any of those factors had changed. His irrational reaction to the dream in ROTS was only one factor.

You don't find that interesting, which is your prerogative, and I wouldn't say you're "supposed" to care--some people will, some won't. One of my favorite aspects of Star Wars is the fact that the characters invoke such varying reactions from people.

Neither of us has to be wrong. You aren't supposed to care, but I'm not supposed to not care either. (Which isn't what you said, but I think in general that's the premise behind some of these debates.)

But before you said Anakin was never rational, now you're saying he occasionally behaved irrationally in battle. These don't match up.

I think what anakinfan meant is that Anakin is more rational in terms of professional relationships/situations, than personal ones. I think it's a pretty consistent statement. All she's saying is that, even though Anakin's generally more rational when it comes to his job than his personal life, we do see his lack of emotional control bleed out into battlefield situations as well.

As for the whole "irrationality" or "no emotional control" business -- it doesn't really matter when talking about justice -- you have to look at what Anakin did first and foremost. It is worth analyzing, however, when you want to avoid creating such instability again, which would certainly have been on Yoda and Obi-Wan's minds when they trained Luke. That's why, in my opinion, it's worth considering what factors may have played into Anakin's fall.

I probably would have stuck with Kit Fisto, but swapped out Sasse Tinn and Agen Kolar for Cin Drallig and Quinlan Voss. Though I would probably still be nervous without having Obi-Wan or Yoda with me. Kit even said as much in the novelisation while they were in the elevator. And why not attempt to use Shatterpoint on Anakin before ordering him to stay put.

Was Anakin capable of rational thought? Sure. This is why he was able to see that Obi-Wan's plan to use him as a spy was the wrong path to take. The ironic thing about this scenario is that Anakin was expressing his opposition to the plan in an emotional manner and Obi-Wan was trying to talk him into it, in a rational manner. Yet, Anakin was the one who was really being rational.

But Anakin had his irrational side. And he gave in to it and made some very bad choices. But he was not the only one.

Ideally

Obi-wan, Yoda, Ki Adi Mundi

since no obi or yoda are allowed i would go with

Cin Dragling, Ki Adi Mundi, Plo Koon

defiantly the top 3 jedi after obi, anakin, windu, and yoda

As for soo many people putting down fisto. I find that hilarious..... why would you choose a guy who managed 2 blocks and died in about 1 second?

I would wait for Yoda and Obi-Wan to return from their missions, and brought them and Ki-Adi-Mundi with me.

Why Ki-Adi-Mundi?

he was the 3rd i command from the movies and seemed to be the highest ranked behind windu and yoda before obi came to the council. i would think he would be very powerful as well

You wouldn't know that, considering in this hypothetical situation you're going to confront Sidious without knowledge of the future.

I think the point is who would you take to confront Sidious, who are "your guys", regardless of the likelihood that anyone other than Anakin, Mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan would get killed quickly.


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So I went through 14 pages and realized I never answered the question, probably because I know it doesn't matter. But I'll try it now anyway.

Okay. So I'm in Mace Windu's position and Skywalker just told me Palpatine is Sidious and now I can take three Jedi with me to confront him. I can't choose Yoda, Obi-Wan or Anakin. I guess I'm not allowed to just bomb Palpatine's office, either.

What am I looking for? I'm looking for good duelists. Lack of fear. The ability to resist the dark side. The ability to keep a cool head no matter what. Team work and loyalty. Yeah, Anakin is out anyway.

Looking at it that way, in such a limited scenario, Mace's choices are pretty good. He took three Council members, all notable duelists. Fisto is known for keeping a cool head. Kolar is known for being fiercely loyal to the Council. There's little info on Tiin, but what there is suggests he may not be as reliable as the other two. Still, he was supposedly strong in a way similar to Anakin and I dare say he had quite a hatred of the dark side. Mace's choice is further defended by the fact that so many Jedi were far away from Coruscant and these three Council members were available.

My choices would be:

Cin Drallig: He couldn't have won the title of Battlemaster in a raffle. Time to put his skills to the ultimate test. He's a master of multiple forms and is supposed to be very good at Force speed, which may be a requirement against a poweful Sith Lord. (I'm trying to keep knowledge of Palpatine's skills out of this)

Ki-Adi-Mundi: Known for stoicism, practicality, logic. Supported removing Palpatine from office. Skilled in Ataru, which is an excellent form for dueling.

Luminara: Again known for her calm. Known for her outstanding defense, which would be important in a confrontation with a Sith Lord Chancellor. Also known for adapting well with her allies in battle. That ability to duel alongside others is what gets her on my list.

Notes on others:

Kit Fisto: While I think he was an excellent choice, especially considering what was on hand, I think his lightsaber combat style is cause for concern. It's enough to push him off my list.
Kolar: I think he's an excellent choice and would be fine swapping him in for anyone on my list. I left him off my list because he's very aggressive and his abilities are less documented than the ones on my list.
Tiin: Again he is less documented but from what I gather he seems less emotionally stable than the others.
Shaak Ti: Another excellent choice and another Council member who was on Coruscant at the time. I'm fine with swapping her in for anyone on my list.

Again, confined to such a limited scenario, I have a hard time faulting Mace for his choices. I do think speed was important in dealing with the matter, so I can understand not wanting to wait for other Jedi who were far from Coruscant atm.

But when you open the situation to other options, Mace's decision is baffling. I'm not sure why he didn't take Shaak Ti and Cin Drallig, who were both available.

I don't know why so many people choose Mundi. He's never been portrayed as a lightsaber extraordinare, unlike Fisto who fought off Grievous just days earlier on a moving train. As for Saesee Tiin he was on the Council for years more than Mundi in (EU that is, I know that doesn't count here though)
Agen Kolar was imo a mistake on Mace's part. He was a new member of the Council and nothing compared to Shaak Ti in terms of lightsaber eloquence.

If we're counting EU, Mundi absolutely has been portrayed as a talented swordsman.

If we're only counting the movies, Fisto's fight against Grievous never happened and we never see Shaak Ti duel anyone. You can't have it both ways.

Mundi, Fisto, Ti and Kolar all fought in the Battle of Geonosis and all survived, though Mundi comes off the worst because he was captured and had his lightsaber taken from him, while the other three are in this picture. (I believe that's Fisto on the right edge of the screen next to Kenobi's saber)

Btw, can anyone tell me who the black guy is standing between Bultar Swan, Shaak Ti and I believe the Weequay Sora Bulq?

1) I'm saying EU Mundi hasn't been portrayed as an overly skilled lightsaber practioner but I just remembered Hypori so I understand.
2) That's Roth Del-Masona. He survived Geonosis, eventually being slain protecting the Chancellor from Grievous on Coruscant.