Discussion in 'The Movies' started by Slowpokeking, Jun 2, 2012.
And, we know the Emperor's word is as good as 'gold'...
Um...not really sure I'm seeing your point. Is it only Sith use the Dark Side?
..and his son...
...Might disagree with you there.
darthboba, you know I was being sarcastic when I said, "and we know that the Emperor's word is as good as gold", right?
That was meant to go to slowpoke. Digging up images on google ain't like dusting crops.
But yeah, "dark side=Sith" hasn't ever really been true. Even in the post-1999 continuity this isn't true; while the term 'Dark Jedi' was quite common in the 90s to refer to dark side Force users and has since fallen into disuse, 'Sith' has been refined to a particular sect of dark side users who have secret knowledge that other dark side groups and individuals lack, as well as an entirely different philosophy and rulebook.
Yeah, and their "secret knowledge" ends up about as "useful" as:
"DRINK MORE OVALTINE!!!!"
lol. Well the ROTS novel does show that the Sith approach to the dark side isn't "RAWR I'M SOO MAD", but rather an outgrowth of prequel Jedi denial of emotion-a hideously utiltarian philosophy that removes compassion from the Jedi way. It's exactly where the Jedi would have wound up, IMO.
No, only members of the Sith Order is sith, otherwise just Dark Jedi, but Sidious clearly is a Sith in OT.
He is now, sure. But you and the other people in the thread at posting at cross-purposes; it's entirely legitimate to believe that prior to TPM Palpatine wasn't necessarily such.
Funny, that sounds exactly like what I said in my speculation re: what the lightning actually is.
Vader is a Jedi-turned Sith Lord and he was turned by Palpatine, it was said many times in the movie.
So he's using Light Side's power?
Nothing is said about the Sith in the OT at all. Vader was a Jedi who then turned to the dark side. He also has the title "Dark Lord of the Sith" as per associated materials, but for a long time no one even knew what a Sith was supposed to be. And even after comic series (influenced by Lucas) made it clear that the term Sith referred to a dark side sect, there was nothing to connect Palpatine to membership in that organization/tradition. Palpatine was never called "the Dark Lord of the Sith." He seemed, again, like he could be outside of categorization.
It doesn't make it impossible to then turn him into a Sith in the canon, but this was a change to how things were presented previously.
Dark Lord of the Sith, clearly it's not some title that a Jedi would have. He was turned by Palpatine to the Dark Side and still kept this title. So it's surely a title given by Palpatine. Since Palpatine was also the one who taught him the power of the Dark Side, that makes him a Sith for sure.
What was changed?
Dark Lord of the Sith is clearly some Dark Side users-Vader is a Dark Lord of the Sith-Vader is turned and taught by Palpatine, his title was mostly given by Palpatine then how come Palpatine is not a Sith?
Where does the OT say the Emperor specifically turned Vader?
"If you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did..."
"I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader."
"... and take your father's place at my side!"
Vader could have been a Jedi who turned to the dark side because it was a quicker and easier way to access power, perhaps learning on his own or from ancient sources, and then joined up with the rising Empire/Emperor because he found they shared philosophies and goals.
Dark Lord of the Sith is not a Jedi title, true, but it's not something that every dark sider would be called either. It implies membership in the Sith sect. Vader might have considered himself part of this, the Emperor might not have.
What changed was that Palpatine was never called a Sith previous to TPM, even though in some of the comics he consulted with Sith spirits. I think the notions of what Jedi and Sith and dark Jedi and dark siders were changed quite a bit, too.
EDIT. And even if the Emperor DID turn specifically turn Vader, this still doesn't necessarily mean Palpatine was a Sith. He could be simply a dark side Master, and Vader could have gotten his Sith credentials in some other way. Personal quests for knowledge, or something.
Actually, no it's not. IIRC, and a quick check of Sith on Wikipedia seems to indicate that I am, the word Sith is not mentioned throughout the entire original trilogy. Up until Episode I was released, Palpatine could have been anything and Vader could have turned to the Dark Side all on his own for any number of reasons.
Luke - of the Emperor beware. Do not underestimate his powers, or suffer your father's fate you will.
I took it upon myself to train Anakin in the ways of the Jedi. My mistake
was thinking I could be as good a teacher as Yoda. I was not. Such was my
foolish pride. The Emperor sensed Anakin's power, and he lured him to the
dark side.' He paused sadly and looked directly into Luke's eyes, as if he
were asking for the boy's forgiveness. 'My pride had terrible con sequences
for the galaxy.'
Is it clear enough?
No not all Dark Side users are Sith, but since Anakin was lured and taught by Palpatine, he was a Sith and still use that title, it surely came from Sidious.
It was mentioned a lot of times in the novels of OT.