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SWC Obi-Wan hang out

Discussion in 'The Movies' started by Valairy_Scot, Mar 22, 2012.

  1. Kenobiwan Jedi Grand Master

    Just got this on my facebook account:

    [IMG]

    with this quote from Obi-Wan: “Oh well, just another boring day saving the universe.” - Obi-Wan
  2. Valairy_Scot Jedi Grand Master

    More or less, you are saying what I have said numerous times about GL's decisions and his rewrites/retcons. You have a most valid point, especially the bolded parts.

    I happen to disagree with you about the vengeance, my interpretation of the character's motivations.

    But the implications of a clone army, Ben's "POV" (which, by the way, I think is valid if not exactly a bit of a stretch), lack of mention of any attempt to free Shmi.... I doubt these ever occurred to GL. Or if so, he dismissed them as unimportant, taking time away from the plot, something the viewers wouldn't notice...

    Because we are supposed to know the Jedi/Obi-Wan/etc. are the good guys, we are supposed to accept they are doing the right thing despite how some may interpret the presentation of the actions - because the "correct interpretation" is GL's in the end (I fear I said that badly, but I hope you get my point).
  3. ruth baulding Jedi Master

    You are of course free to interpret a story apart from any known authorial intent. In which case, we have the sole (almost) surviving member of an ancient sect still planning to destroy the current destructive tyrant ruling the galaxy, and encouraging a boy who happens to be born with special powers to take this burden on himself. Luke's hate for the Empire seems to flow from hsi natural goodness, though; and even at face value only, isn't it poosible to ascribe a perfectly reasonable (neither right nor wrong) motive for killing Vader, besides vengeance? Taking out the top leadership of an extremely oppressive tyranny is generally motivated by principle, rather than personal grudge. I'm sure when the Rebel allaince thought Vader was on baord the first Death Star, they weren't squeamish about taking him out, either. In other words, to have a piqued concern for eliminating Vader does not seem to require vengeance as a motive at all. Would the Rebel Alliance's motives in general be described as vengeful on the face-value level?
    FARK2005 likes this.
  4. FARK2005 Jedi Master

    The way I see it, the reason Obi-Wan is adamant that Luke kill Vader in the OT stems not from a desire for revenge but as a necessity: the oppression of the Sith had to be destroyed, and Vader was one of them. In Obi-Wan’s mind, Vader was irrevocable lost to the dark side: not only had he witnessed Vader cut down fellow Jedi and small children, but more importantly he saw him choke his heavily pregnant wife. The Anakin Obi-Wan knew and called brother would never do such a thing, and so to him Anakin had died and could never be brought back (remember not even his “Angel” could make Anakin turn from the dark path). Only Vader remained, and Obi-Wan had no reason to believe Vader would spare Luke (unless Luke join him).

    I don’t quite agree that he instils a vengeful attitude, because Luke never knew his father - he never had the kind of bond with him that children have with their parents as they grow up, therefore the pain of his father’s loss is not that of a child that looses a beloved parent, but of a child that never had the experience of a father-son relationship. And though I certainly believe Luke was angry with Vader for ruining the opportunity for Luke to know and experience having a father, I don’t think the hurt is deep enough to instil a desire for revenge – nor does Luke’s reaction to Obi-Wan’s revelation indicate this in my opinion – actually Luke’s seems more upset about Vader killing Obi-Wan than learning that Vader killed his father.

    If Obi-Wan truly wanted to instil vengeance in Luke, I don’t think he would have merely have told Luke that Vader betrayed and murdered his father, but also how he strangled his mother while she was heavily pregnant with him, and how he contributed to her death.

    I think the reason Obi-Wan told Luke what he did was because he wanted to protect Luke until he had completed his training: if Luke learned about Vader’s true identity he would feel compelled to seek him out, which, could lead to only two outcomes in Obi-Wan’s mind: 1) Luke’s death, or 2) a third Sith.

    I always got the impression that Obi-Wan and Yoda intended to tell Luke the truth about Vader once he finished his training, and that they did not plan on Luke facing Vader until such time.

    Maybe because if Luke ever hoped to challenge the Emperor, he first had to get past Vader; so to Luke, the most immediate threat/problem is Vader and hence the one he needs to focus on.


    That's how I see it, but as with most things, it is a matter of perception.
    PiettsHat, Zeta1127 and Valairy_Scot like this.
  5. Valairy_Scot Jedi Grand Master

    =D==D=

    I'd quote your whole post because I totally agree with it - but I refrained. Great post. ^:)^
  6. ruth baulding Jedi Master

    When Vader goes to find Ben on board the death star, he seems to be intent on killing the man. Does that qualify as vengefulness, or merely a realistic response to a threat? And if the latter, why is the inverse not true? Surely a man who just obliterated millions of people in one blow and has left a decades-long bloody swath behind him, and has the entire machinery of the Empire to back him up is just as great a threat as a single old hermit with a laser sword? The insults and taunts exchanged during that battle seem to indicate that both of them have some unfinished business on the mind, which leads me to wonder why "vengeful obsession" isn't predicated of both, under this paradigm.
    In other words, why is Ben to be critiqued for wanting to finish business, but Vader is not?
  7. ruth baulding Jedi Master

  8. ruth baulding Jedi Master

    That's vengeful Ben - look, they even make an action figure!!
  9. Valairy_Scot Jedi Grand Master

    Ah, Ruth, but this is the Obi-Wan thread and it's him we're discussing.

    I like the "seems" to be in your first sentence, though. Appearances can be deceptive - what WAS Ben's plan? Delay? Diversion? Death (Vader's or his)? I think Ben had some idea he wasn't leaving alive and once he engaged Vader (but not probably until then) realized how/why - that his destiny was not to destroy Vader. I think it was more than a diversion, a sacrifice - I think he realized that his death & disappearance into the Force might just open a tiny window into Anakin - that death is not the final oblivion and all that.
  10. ruth baulding Jedi Master

    Oh, agreed, I was just playing rhetorically.
    Sorry for Vengeful Ben. I posted off topic! Just don't send me to the Agri-Corps, anything but that!! Maybe somebody should start a separate thread for Angry-Wan. I groove his little shrunken skull necklace and teh artfully tattered cloak, very Goth.
  11. earlybird Jedi Master

    For me Ben searching and confronting Vader was a means of igniting that small spark of light that was still Anakin by becoming one with the Force and leaving a lightsaber behind.
  12. Valairy_Scot Jedi Grand Master

    @ruth baulding: you would! :D I'd prefer to see a version of aerial Obi-Wan sparring in a kilt (oh, Earlybird!)
  13. nawiboTEMP Jedi Master

    I agree. The fact is Obi-Wan showed him how it was done. Obi-Wan sacrificed himself to SAVE Vader's son and daughter, the ones he himself had nearly killed when he choked their mother. and as a nice bonus got to show Vader that the Light Side had a few tricks of it's own, if only he'd have been patient. Vader had no freakin' clue what happened when Obi-Wan just up and disappeared. It's kind of fun to watch that scene the way he stalks around the robe like "WHAT THE H-E-Double Hockey Sticks is going on here!!!" He is SO confused. LOL

    And in a way he showed Luke how it was done too, though I don't know if Luke noticed what Obi-Wan did. Obi-Wan put up his weapon, it's kind of a moot point on whether he'd ever have been able to get away, the fact is he wasn't really trying to, imo. He knew he wasn't leaving that Death Star alive(at least not in the traditional sense:)) but in the end, Obi-Wan actually stopped fighting and allowed Vader to strike at him.

    And you know in a weird way, Obi-Wan did have a more personal connection to Vader than Luke did. Obi-Wan KNEW Anakin, he raised him from ten years old, he fought beside him for over a decade. They had a far more personal relationship than Luke and Anakin did so in actuality had it been necessary for Vader to die, it could very well have been easier in the end for Luke to kill Vader than it would have been for Obi-Wan. They may have shared some DNA but they really were essentially strangers.
  14. FARK2005 Jedi Master

    =D==D=

    I'd quote your whole post because I totally agree with it - but I refrained. Great post. ^:)^[/quote]

    Thanks :)
  15. earlybird Jedi Master

    For me Ben searching and confronting Vader was a means of igniting that small spark of light that was still Anakin by becoming one with the Force and leaving a lightsaber behind.

    I did a repost of "Obi-Wan's lightsaber"
  16. ruth baulding Jedi Master

    Don't torment me like that!!! It's cruel.
  17. ruth baulding Jedi Master

    Actually, I shoudl prefer to see our favorite Jedi try /this/ trick in a kilt:
    [IMG]
    That's actually ObI Wan up on top of the pile of rocks - wonder what's going through his head... he has a fairly impertinent look on his face.
    serendipityaey, obimom and FARK2005 like this.
  18. Valairy_Scot Jedi Grand Master

    He's thinking what harm would a little Force push do.
    obimom likes this.
  19. obimom Jedi Master

    Gosh..lots of new Obi-Wan talk here..but I'm too tired to catch up tonight...

    What I did glimpse was Obi-Wan sparring in a kilt....

    Hmmm....[face_hypnotized] 8-}

    I'll have to read the context of that statement later...:D

    Just dropping in to say HI and Goodnight...I-)
  20. ruth baulding Jedi Master

    He's thinking. I've got master Yoda's gimer stick right here and Quinlan is in no position to defend himself."
    obimom and hlc88 like this.

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