Discussion in 'The Movies' started by Kez-Iban, Apr 18, 2012.
He kinda did.
Sidious threw the fight... IMO. That's a much debated topic, of course.
Eh, that's debatable. As soon as Anakin arrived, Palpatine clearly didn't put up as much of a fight as he could have. He keeps saying "I'm too weak" and "Please don't" although he's plenty capable of defending himself -- as soon as Anakin has interceded and Mace's arm is gone, he strikes with barely a second's delay (and with some pretty powerful lightning at that). He was clearly trying to force Anakin's hand here and that meant playing the part of the victim. Mace might have gotten rid of Palpatine's lightsaber, but, as we saw with Yoda, that doesn't mean that he's incapable of turning the tables.
Regardless if it was a ploy, he needed Anakin to jump in at that point or he was getting a lightsaber sandwich.
Perhaps. I wouldn't necessarily say he needed Anakin, though. If there was no Anakin, I imagine he would have kept blasting Mace with lightning rather than backing up into a corner and pleading. When Yoda confronted him, he certainly had no compunctions about making use of anything as a weapon.
I doubt it would have come to that anyway. If Anakin had never existed, I imagine Sidious would have seriously retooled his plans from the beginning and kept Dooku as an apprentice, thus the scene would have played out in an entirely different way. But I digress...
Palpatine always had every angle covered and manipulated every outcome to his advantage. Until the end of ROTJ that is. Whether he threw the fight and could have defeated Mace is always a good debate, and Mace was the only master of Vaapad, but I still think the scenario was part of Palpatine's chess game.
Yes. Anakin walked in right when Palpatine wanted him to and saw exactly what Palpatine wanted him to see: Palpatine on the floor at the end of Mace's lightsaber. To me, Palpatine's face when he sees Anakin come in pretty much confirms this. The only part of the fight he may have not planned per se was getting kicked in the face, but he adapted to that... and he needed to have something make him unarmed before Anakin got there anyway.
I'm not so sure, given that Anakin was apparently present the whole time in the original version of the scene.
By the same token, Mace seems quite able to deflect Palpatine's lightning until the loss of his weapon and arm. It's all well and good to point out that "I'm too weak" turned out not to be the case, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Palpatine threw the lightsaber portion of the confrontation.
Funny the way this discussion developed. It demonstrates big contradictions in narration and character portrayals.
Anakin wasn't needed for 66 to succeed, but he was absolutely needed so Windu didn't carve up a weak Palpatine.
Palpatine lost that saber fight. He wasn't faking it. He lost.
As depicted, Palpatine wasn't that strong of a Force-wielding character.
He admitted to Yoda that Anakin would be more powerful than either of them. He lost the fight to Yoda in the Senate but was fortunate simply because of his spatial position on the Senate pod. Watch the fight again. He lost the Force battle. But the resulting blast sent Yoda tumbling downward while it knocked him backward into a reinforced space.
Palpatine was desperate to convert Anakin. He begged him to join. If he wasn't weak, why was he so desperate? Anakin, of course, wasn't too intelligent, so he fell for it.
Afterward, realizing that he was obviously stronger than Palpatine, Anakin even told Padme that he'd soon overthrow the new Emperor and they (as husband and wife) could rule together. Palpatine didn't know that, or plan it.
The only thing that saved that from happening to Palpatine was Obi Wan. Anakin's debilitating injuries severed a great deal of his power. He was henceforth simply a servant because that's all he could be.
If Palpatine was supposed to be an amazingly strong Sith, he surely wasn't written like that.
These are narrative and character portrayal contradictions. Anakin is vital but not necessary. Palpatine is all-knowing but weak.
The rest of us are confused.
I think the general point being made (or at least that I'm trying to make) is this: is there anything Anakin did that couldn't have been accomplished by Dooku? That's what I interpreted the original poster's question as. If you look at it from that perspective, then Anakin certainly wasn't necessary. Palpatine simply wanted him as his apprentice because he had so much raw potential.
I don't see how you can say with certainty that Palpatine flat-out lost the fight. Yes, you can interpret it that way, but, for me, the situation is such a set-up that I can't imagine that Palpatine wasn't manipulating at least part of the fight. Don't forget that Anakin flat out told him he was going to inform the Council so Palpatine had at least until they arrived to get ready -- and he certainly didn't seem that concerned when they got there.
The issue for me is that Palpatine says -- "I'm too weak" but he clearly isn't. As soon as Anakin's cut Mace's hand off, Palpatine blasts him with lightning that's just as powerful as anything before and begins to scream in pure glee. He even yells "power. unlimited power" as if he's mocking Windu in his last moments. If he was so "weak" he shouldn't have been able to do that so quickly. Also note the side-long glance he gives Anakin as Anakin says "he must stand trial." He isn't watching Mace's reaction (you know, the guy who's attacking him). He's paying attention to Anakin's.
In addition, how is Palpatine not a strong Force-Wielding character? Really? I mean, he defeated Yoda. He defeated three Jedi Masters at once. If the only person who ever legitimately beat him was Windu, I'd still say that makes him rather powerful.
What? He lost? Then why was Yoda the one crawling away? I just watched the fight -- Yoda was catching the lightning, but as they came together, it exploded and blew them both back. Yoda fell farther (presumably due to his smaller mass) but that in no way makes their duel his win. At most, it was a draw and considering Yoda himself says he failed, I don't see how it can be counted as a defeat for Palpatine.
If Yoda had been able to control the blast, I might agree with you, as it is though, they were both caught off guard.
He begged Anakin to join because he wanted him and his power. But do you really think that if Anakin had never been born that Palpatine's plans would have never come into fruition? He was faking weakness (at least the way I see it) during his duel with Windu. He could certainly have continued to use force lightning at the very least because as soon as Anakin attacked, Palpatine had no problem unleashing it to kill Windu.
Anakin planned to overthrow Palpatine but, as it stands, there's no way to know if he would have succeeded. He had the potential to be the strongest Force user ever, but by ROTS, he clearly hadn't reached his full potential (as evidenced by his loss to Obi-Wan). It's thus impossible to predict when Anakin would have been strong enough to take out Palpatine. Using Anakin's description of his own strength can be problematic as he's always been overconfident when it comes to his battle prowess and it ends up costing him.
Anakin is not vital nor necessary -- that's the supreme irony of the notion that Anakin might have been created by the Sith. They created the instrument of their own destruction.
I fail to see how Palpatine can be perceived as weak either -- if he only ever lost to Windu, that's hardly what I'd call terrible, especially if it was to gain a more powerful ally out of the gambit. But I suppose your mileage may vary.
Which is exactly how it should have been.
So what's with "The Chosen One" prophecy?
It's not necessary.
No, he lost. He had a blade to his throat and his face was getting turned inside-out because his powers were being tossed back at him without any effect to his enemy. He was about to die, and he begged for help.
Anything beyond what depicted on-screen is just pure conjecture in order to fit some personal hypothesis.
Then watch it again. Because Palpatine lost that fight too.
If they had a been on an even level, Yoda would have won with no problem. Right before the blast, Yoda's face was certain and confident; Palpatine's face surprised and worried.
Palpatine lost --- again.
That's a great question. I don't know. You don't either. And that's the problem.
The entire Chosen One character arc implies that he's necessary for the Sith to triumph, but the way that Order 66 is executed, the Chosen One isn't needed at all.
Nope. Watch it again. Windu had no problem blocking his lightning at full strength....and then turning it back on him and warping his face.
Lucas himself says Palpatine lost. That's the way it was meant to be portrayed.
Watch it again. Palpatine lost.
The scene isn't ambiguous.
Yeah, but it's telling that he says it like it won't be much trouble.
It's even more telling is that Palpatine tells Yoda that Vader will be more powerful than either of them.
Also -- even more telling that:
Palpatine tries to flee a confrontation with Yoda(!), to which, Yoda mocks, "If so powerful you are......why leave?"
Because Yoda knows he's a fake.
So he was an all-powerful strategist for Ep's I and II, but a lucky buffoon in Ep. III.
No, that's supposed to be the ultimate irony of the story. But the way it's actually written and executed in the film, the irony is that neither character is consistent or ultimately worth a damn, because they contradict their character purposes and the broader saga narratives which they're supposed to serve.
Can really not disagree without throwing out "watch it again," as in, "If you watch the movie several times, you will become enlightened and intelligent and see the movie exactly the way I do, since I am more enlightened and intelligent than you are?" That's the way that statement comes across.
Is it not possible that people can simply have differing viewpoints on a film, without the attitude that "my perspective is the only correct one and you must keep watching the film until you see it from my perspective" coming into play?
It's completely possible to watch a film and form differing viewpoints and opinions. In fact, this is great! I have several Trekkie friends that love and doggedly defend Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.
And that's great. I'm glad they like it.
It's also completely possible to get onto the internet and access a Star Wars forum where people discuss Star Wars movies and then reference back to various points in said Star Wars movies to further analyze and discuss one's opinion on said Star Wars movies.
And if you don't like that --- maybe you shouldn't get onto the internet and access a Star Wars forum where people discuss Star Wars movies and then reference back to various points in said said Star Wars movies in order to further analyze and discuss differing opinions on Star Wars movies.
If you can't take differing opinions, that's your problem.
Never did I claim that I was more intellectual or intelligent for viewing any certain piece of a film in a certain way. Someone I was discussing a Star Wars movie brought up a piece of visual evidence from a Star Wars movie, and I countered with a divergent opinion and offered a specific visual scene in a specific Star Wars movie that would buttress my assertion.
So again --- this is a Star Wars movie forum. Probably what's going to happen in a Star Wars movie forum is different posters are going to make assertions and use evidence from the movies to do so.
It's a Star Wars movie forum. That's what happens.
I'm not sorry -- I'm responding to this statement again and quoting it this time.
If that's the way it came across, then ---- that's YOUR problem. Not mine.
Because I didn't type anything like that.
I probably hit a nerve. And you couldn't muster a respectable response. Go figure.
But again --- that's **YOUR** problem.
I'm still unsure where I stand on Palpatine possibly throwing the fight. I know we have been told officially that Mace won, but I still get the feeling Palpatine loses his saber because he can sense Anakin arriving.
One moment I've been wondering about... when Palpatine loses his saber, he kind of cowardly scurries to the corner. Do you guys see this as an act? I mean, why would he do that when Anakin is not there to see it? I was thinking perhaps because Mace needed to think he had won, but I still don't know. Do you read this as genuine fear?
And while Mace officially wins the duel, it is still practically stated on the commentary that Palpatine only pretends to lose his strength with the lightning. I don't know if that actually answers the main question people have raised though.
No, it doesn't. The Chosen One prophecy, if anything, is about the triumph of the Jedi, not the Sith. Nowhere is it said that the Jedi Chosen One would be necessary for the Sith to triumph. The closest analogue to such a concept on the Sith side would be the Sith'ari prophecy, but that's an EU thing, and Anakin doesn't fit the criteria of the Sith'ari as explained by Yuthura Ban.
It was suggested that Palpatine lost the saber fight. That Palpatine wasn't as weak as he claimed afterward is not in dispute, and doesn't prove that he threw the saber fight. Palpatine needed to feign weakness to provoke Anakin, but that doesn't undermine the concept that Mace had the upper hand; in fact, it can be argued that it supports it.
Because by that point Windu was missing a saber and an arm, and could no longer block it.
You don't need the commentary for that, because it is evident from the film as soon as Mace is disarmed. I don't get why people are portraying this as some kind of great revelation or crucial point.
Could you summarise the Sith'ari prophecy? I don't know EU.
On the subject of whether the Jedi needed to be wiped out for the prophecy to be fulfilled, I think that although they were stagnant and their demise was inevitable, it is strongly implied that balance of the force does not mean even numbers of Sith and Jedi. I used to think otherwise, but if that were the case the new Jedi Order after ROTJ would throw the force out of balance again.
Thanx. It's interesting that Sidious proclaimed himself this chosen one of the Sith. It fits with his ego as portrayed in the movies
Yeah, I kind of thought the two moments, losing the fight and feigning weakness, weren't exclusive to each other. I was just thinking aloud.
However, I'm still unsure if he was really scared when he scurries away... IMO he knew Anakin was coming afterall. If it was for show, how does Mace thinking Palpatine was scared help in drawing Anakin in?
That's a fairly recent development. Personally I think Bane is a better candidate, but this was never officially established.