EUC S.O.S. Save Our Skywalker (Temp Edition)

Few years back I likened the Bantam EU to a duel of Sith Lords, Veitch-KJA on one side and Zahn-Stackpole on the other with Luke and co caught in the middle!

Re: DE2

DE2 was a lot of fun, then along came EE. It did also further the Luke-as-James-Bond aspect as to his love life or lack of. Generally DHC haven't done bad where Luke is concerned - DE, DE2, Classic Star Wars, Empire and Rebellion, plus I like Luke in Legacy too.

luke did seem darkish in DE. Han and Leia noticed how he acted towards them. I do think the events of DE changed Luke, in a negative way.

I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die.

love this

well if Luke's characterization wasn't on the line with publishers there wouldn't be a need for this thread.

I feel EE had a few action scenes for the character, force dropping Vader's statue on his minions was a nice touch. But there wasn't much for the character to do really. don't forget Tom Taylor's Dragonsnake comic and Invasion as a good use of the character, Invasion adds some brownie points for the action scenes if anything.

I see it as him being distant in a way to have his family leave sooner and therefore not be endangered by the upcoming events. The only book I ever felt Luke truly dark/grey was in Invincible.

also agreed about the NT/Paul quote

Which bit are you thinking of? The conversation on Coruscant - where Luke detects the Force Storm coming and so is desperate to get them off-planet - or the confrontation on Byss, where he's having to hold back because it isn't yet time for him to take on Sidious?

well there was the scene where Luke is lifting Han off the ground one handed

A Hustle-inspired line: But the con was on!

I'm certain Han was a true believer of Luke being Sidious's follower when he was in his Luke's stranglehold. curiously though how is it possibly for Luke being 5' 9" lifting a 6' 1" indivudal off the ground ?

He was wearing platforms?

More seriously though, now I look at it, that note rings false for Han - if anyone knows how to run a con, it's Han, unless he just doesn't consider Luke to be capable of that sort of duplicity? After all,Luke's honest - isn't he?

Sidious: "To truly convince me of being my apprentice these large platform boots you must wear."
Luke: "This is my greatest challenge yet, I might lose my......sole."


Or perhaps Luke just simply lifted him a bit overhead. at least the panel implies as much. also what was the purpose of his new fangled hand ?

Well Luke is known to be usually honest and he wasn't in on his con in ROTJ.

Jedi Ben: COW: Why do you think so, JB?( That Luke made a smart move to go to Byss and play undercover agent)
JB: 1. Sidious has dropped the bombshell that he's conquered death! So, Luke can kill him but so what?

Well, but Luke and Leia did find a way to defeat him with that wall of Light, and eventually, they figured out a way to truly kill him off with the help of Brand and Han.


- yep, he takes out numerous clones but is overpowered by a younger Sidious - given what we see Sidious do in ROTS, the notion that, as a young man, at least 3 times younger, he could overpower Luke and then coerce him into the dark side isn't that controversial to me.

IF you believe that Sidious "coerced" Luke into the dark side, then it DOES seem to me that you're saying that Luke DID go dark anyway, even though Chee has confirmed that he didn't.


And then there was the World Devastators, as you mention, here you have the perfect superweapon, controlled from Byss. There's no way for anyone to tamper with it, how could they get there? Unless, the galaxy's sole remaining Jedi decided to come to Byss, decide to work for the boss and get granted full access to everything?

Well, I do agree with you about that. Luke DID manage to sabotage those World Devastators when he had control of them. Too bad there wasn't another way besides Luke risking his soul to do it.

As to how people understood the story - or not! - I find it quite baffling, DE isn't exactly complicated in how it tells its tale after all!

Well, you yourself said that Luke was "coerced to the darkside" by Sidious. I think others also got the idea that Luke fell during that part of the comic book.... even though Luke didn't really do anything evil...





kataja : Ah, but we don't see Luke's thoughts here - so he could have got all kind of Force nudges that he shouldn't do it. Besides, whatever Luke know about Allana/ not-Allana on the throne - he knows too that going in and deliberately changing the future isn't a good thing. He would hence act according to what he feel is most right - and here it was not risking Allana.

Okay, I see your point here, but like Marmkid, I would have preferred if Luke would have given as his reason that there were too many innocents in the Temple and there was no guarantee that the baradium strike would have been successful anyway. OR, maybe Luke should have been the one to say that they couldn't do it because Abeloth can see the future anyway and would flee. It just seemed as though Luke was protecting his family here. What I mean, is that it would have looked that way to everyone else, as he couldn't explain his reason to them anyway.

I really liked the tensions between the Sith and the Jedi - but I definitely see your point! I enjoyed the peaceful father&son moments immensly! In fact, that was what drew me into the series - and I think the banning of Lukewas plotwise an excellent idea! It gave them the space and solitude needed.

I liked the discussions between Luke and his son, but I enjoyed reading about them working together during the early part of the series too. I thought they made a good team. I would have liked to see this journey continue for a longer time, with more visits to more worlds. As I said, I would have liked to have seen Luke and Ben not only learn some new Force techniques, but actually use what they learned to help others or to solve problems/defeat villains.

As for Luke being exiled, I really didn't like that at all. The authors could have accomplished the same thing by just having Luke CHOOSE to go off on this journey to discover what was causing the young Jedi to go nuts and Jacen to fall. I didn't like Luke being considered a convicted criminal who needed punishment.

I don't think Luke's exile was used as wisely as it could have been either. While it was a great time for Luke and Ben's relationship to grow, I think it also should have been a time when the Jedi Order was portrayed as wise and competent and able to resolve problems peacefully and well without Luke looking over their shoulders. Sadly, it didn't work that way. We saw a duel to the death between Masters and the Jedi pulled a coup. Luke seemed to be genuinely displeased by both while he was still in Exile, but then just seemed to congratulate everyone for doing the best they could in the situation.

I'd say since Mara's a precise woman, I'd take every word from her literally if she says "not here" - then there is another place!

I would certainly hope so, because I would definitely like to see a far better afterlife together for Luke and Mara. And yes, I'd like to see Mara appear to Luke and Ben as a "normal" Force ghost OFTEN! From the way Luke spoke to Mara in the Lake of Apparitions though, it didn't seem as though Mara appeared to him often.


Even if I get annoyed by Luke portrayals where he doubts himself every others step, I reacted strongly against Wolverton's confident Luke. He would definitely not feel at home in the role at this point yet.

Probably not, but I will admit that I really liked that Luke!


My POV is that Luke was actually characterized pretty well in Apocalypse - but I agree that we didn't see nearly enough of him.

Yes, Luke was okay in Apocalypse; not terrific; but not badly characterized either. However, I was really disappointed that we didn't see more of Luke in this book. With Luke on the cover, I was really expecting Luke to play the most important role in Apocalypse, and I don't really think he did. I thought he did better against her in his earlier encounters with her too. And since Luke and company didn't really kill her, that was a HUGE disappointment!

That battle with Abeloth and Luke's battle in the Jedi Temple were really his biggest parts, and he didn't show up enough throughout the rest of the book. So, yes, definitely NOT enough Luke in Apocalypse! And very few scenes from Luke's point of view too.


Luke is full of doubts - but he knows he will have to act (particularly since not taking action is also an act), Jaina on her hand is arguing for what she wants to believe. Luke listens and comes with a few counter questions - but in the end we only see Jaina's answers - not Luke's.

That's a good point . As I said, we didn't see many scenes from Luke's point of view, or too many responses from Luke to see what he's thinking. I think this would have been a good place to see Luke's answer.


Which is very much as I see his character; Luke will always keep many options in mind; he doesn't settle for one truth but takes action aware of how comlicated things can be. Just like he faced Vader; he knew only one thing; he couldn't kill his father. He didn't have answers back then either; he just acted on the tiny wee certainty he had; the rest just had to follow. Basically, that's how he ended up building his Order too; he tried to search for answers for several years, only growing more uncertain and almost falling to the Dark side meanwhile - then in the end he just got started and learned as he went.

Those are good points, Kataja and a good insight into Luke too, I think.

And no, I have no idea when we'll be on the permanent boards and can start those Luke characterization/roles in the early books again. I think we're getting into some of them through ID's and MS' recent readings of those early books too.


More later..

Yeah maybe he was just distant. He gained more power from that experience also. Remember in um i think it was an x-wing book, or maybe it was I,Jedi, when Corran noticed that Luke was far more powerful than when he met him before. anyway, Luke seemed very unready for being a master and creating the jedi order. I remember Leia noticing Luke In the first book of Jedi Academy Trilogy and he looked haunted, and Leia did not want to face the dark side, and have that happen to her. She thought it was too high a price for power.

So there is plenty of evidence, that Luke was tainted to some degree, with his fight with the dark side. You can disagree with it, Child, but there are canon sources that allude to it. I am not saying he truly fell to the dark side, but he was close.

There would still be no off topic socializing in the Lit threads as per Lit rules.

i hope there is a bit of leeway here, on getting a little off topic. Or can there be a social thread on the new boards to talk about anything?

Lit already has a social thread.

Kais Jai Sheelal : MasterSkywalker86 said: I thought if the Lit/EUC merged then that would mean there is one place to post Lit/EU topics and socialize a bit. Am I misinterpating here ?
There would still be no off topic socializing in the Lit threads as per Lit rules.

KJS is correct. If we can get our LIT tag back, there would be no off-topic socialing. And I wouldn't want SOS to become a social thread anyway. I really want SOS to remain focused as a discussion thread as it was most of the time in the SOS Lit thread on the old boards. If we really wanted to socialize, you could create a PM system involving as many people as you want, I think. And if not, you can always set up your own social thread in EUC, like the SOS thread in EUC on the old boards that no one posts in.




kataja : My own opinion, though, is that DE should be made a novel (by a Luceno or Stower caliber writer) -

As one who didn't like DE, I would hate to go back there again. The only way I would find it somewhat palatable would be if it would be a novel told in first person present with Luke telling the story and with the reader understanding Luke's thoughts and motivations and why he did what he did. It would be like Corran Horn in I, Jedi.


Agreed! What the heck esle is he supposed to do. Plus the fact that Luke is a man of action - he sees something needed to be doen - he does it. Even if he only sees one way out. And admittedly - up to DE, the Force has indeed been with him, the risks he's been taking has bene worthwhile.

As you said though, in DE it was really a close call. It probably did give Luke a shock. I guess I just don't like the idea of Luke taking that risk and trying to fight fire with fire. You would think that Luke would know better. He should have know that it could never really end well. He was really lucky that he came out of DE still on the Lightside, with his soul still intact. And yes, I too can see Leia scolding Luke afterwards: "WHAT were you thinking????!!"

Then, as Sidious declares himself the dark side incarnate and unleashes a Force Storm that starts killing thousands, Luke takes him on at that level, using a technique for the first time purely by instinct against the dark side's strongest advocate - and wins! DE was nothing less than a total victory.

I missed that when I read JB's post. He *is* right that it was pretty amazing that Luke was able to figure out and counter Sidious with that wall of Light (and with Leia's help!) without ever having experienced it or used it before. I guess it was a pretty good victory. I just never saw it as such because by the time I had read it or even knew that it existed, I heard people saying that Luke had fallen to the dark side. I thought maybe I had missed a novel.

It took me a while to find out that athe story was in a comic book. And when I finally found it, it didn't seem to me that Luke had fallen to the dark side, because he didn't commit evil acts. But even some early authors gave the impression in their books that Luke had been a dark sider and come back. (Like the first book of the Jedi Academy trilogy, I think. ) I'm very glad that Chee has confirmed that Luke did not, in fact, fall in DE.


More another time...

Great point!

I can imagine! I've been posting in other forums, but there's not nearly enough lit focus on those to satisfy my needs

OMG, you men are so adorable! (sorry... )

I agree! That tension just made the novel to me!!!

That's the one passage I liked in Darksaber too. It was amazingly perceptive, compared to the rest of the novel. The ambiguity about everything really, in that passage, is just superb. You can't tell what anyone is really thinking = you can read anything into it. Which is just perfect, the situation taken into concern; Luke's girlfriend - and his future wife - lot's of explosives under the smooth surface there... I wish of course (or the b-word-that-I'm-not-supposed-to-say side of me) that we could get some more. But it's still better than the lame handling of a similar situation that we have in the Corellian Crisis Trilogy.

I'd say it does too. But I still can't say I LIKE it. It still frustrates me that we can't follow anything going on in Luke's head! The decision to follow Palpatine is one thing - I can follow that - but about everything else..

.Now what's that? Another argument against the merge?

Great points. I hadn't thought of that.


[QUOTEChild]In Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor though, we actually got "inside" Artoo's head and were privy to "his" thoughts about his rescuing of Luke and about how he would miss his "friend" (Luke), as Artoo seemed to feel he wouldn't survive the rescue attempt himself.

Artoo was Luke's "sidekick" throughout most of the films and EU. As I said, I really miss not having them working together anymore. It's been far too long![/QUOTE]

Oh, I so LOVED that passage in Mindor! Who wouldn't?!?? Besides, everyone loves Artoo!!! In a fanfic I wrote, I made it look like he died - and I can tell you hell was loose! People were frantic! And the person who had attacked him was established villain just like that! Which was my intention of course.

And agreed! It's been far too long. We need to see the together! I'd also like to see a Mara-Artoo fic. I think she really got close to that droid too when accepting her feelings for Luke.

Agreed. Having been as Master for so long, I think we should count on him doing that, rather than not. And if the authors forget to count that in - well, their shame

So true! Well, they bonded forever in VOTF, didn't they? That's why I can't see Luke hook up with another woman (other than shortly - and if that's fitting for an aging JediMaster I will let more prudent readers than myself decide); in a universe where we know the dead live on in the Force it just doesn't work - not after two people have bonded so strongly.

But without us, where would you be?

Yes, I agree. He dealt with it really well - but after the long starve, it just wasn't enough. And while Union was a treat - it was too much about the wedding and too little about them! Ah, still so many stories to tell...

you men and your crazy standards

What makes...? Oh, I'll get back to that one separately. I will!

Could you repeat taht question. I don't quite understand it?

I think the Ysannas were strange too - and again - I just don't get Luke because of the drawings. No emotion, no nothing. It's a shame.

Agreed about the first. He's so expresisonless, even before he falls. And yes, his actions seem hostile - but that's explainable since he's trying to give the expression that he's Dark to Palpatine. Probably he'd even need to tap into the Dark Side and this some frustrations would come out. I don't buy that he was tainted for ten years, though. Zahn suggests that in HTTE, but his arguments for it are...strange, to say the least. I don't think Luke's been so overusing the Force at all in the stories that lay between. I have no clue of how Luke would be responsible of what happened to Callista or Gaeriel - and while I think he was written strangely, even badly n several books, it still doesn't explain it by claiming he was influenced by the Dark Side. Now, mind you, I wouldn't mind the explanation would it fit in - but it just doesn't.

Interesting. Why's taht?

That was because an arm adds lenght. At least when you lift it.

It was a pretty tense moment, though. One of those, that also could have gained so much it we'd got justa glimpse of the thoughts behind. What do you think went on in his head?

Good point. The way i see it, is that Han's slightly OOC because he's dealing with a pregnant Leia he feels he needs to protect -a nd then his best pal (and her brother!) goes dark straight before his eyes, not protecting her when they stand before Palpatine - the betrayal is double, or more - so he freaks out. While Luke needs to tap inot the Dark Side in order to convince Palpatine, so all his possible frustrations about Han, (his arrogance, his superior attitudes) bubbles to surface, possibly for the first time - and Han can feel it.

Yes, I get you point

But that's not evidence Luke was tainted - only that he was weary and worn out. And that his Jedi powers had grown could be natural, couldn't it? I think we can read it both ways. We know that Stackpole (Zahn's pal) wrote I, Jedi to shoehorn THT into the events more easily, so naturally he'd drop hints that would suit what's said there. That said, my personal view is that Luke didn't fall to the DS - but he made several steps onto that road, even if he more or less kept his other foot on the light side. And it's only fair to expect that experience shaked him enough to color him for several years. It's not the same as being tainted by the DS - but it's to recover from a trauma.

Fine with me. As long as there's room for a goofy comment now and then.

That, however, could be so cool! It would need a good author, though!

Exactly. It would be like a war-trauma. And it explains why he's not exactly happy in the next several books. Along with the burden of creating a new Jedi order, of course. Poor Luke. Lots to handle for a guy who used to fix powercovertors on Tatooine only a few years back.

That's exactly my problem with the Bantams - they contradict each other all the time! Ok, I know, I know, they hadn't established the timeline and the books came out to quickly etc... But it still annoys me!!! Due to the way Luke starts to look!

Well, it wasn't the wall of light that killed Sidious at Da Soocha but his own Force Storm and the final solution did not just involve Brand and Han but all the Jedi stopping Sidious from crossing back!

As to the other point - "Learn about language, Luke" ! If I coerce you into doing something, say I grab a member of your family and put a gun to their head or I grab and throw you through a doorway - in neither case could you be said to have done it freely, so neither are you responsible for it. The audio version makes it much clearer that Sidious has sledgehammered Luke into the dark side and imprisoned him there, hence Zombie Luke on Eclipse.[..[/quote]

Close only counts in horseshoes or hand grenades! Scarred, blasted, burnt, scared, haunted - oh yeah, Luke certainly went through the wringer but that's as it should be given where he went. Byss is basically hell and Sidious the devil. But no, I don't think he merits the tainted tag - I saw Mara's point in HoT that Luke was running around tying to solve everything at the expense of himself! That seems likely in the wake of DE, Luke would be asking himself what does he do next time? The solution? Revive the Jedi and stop everything before it starts. If you want to say this taint manifested as a protective obsession, which we know his father was susceptible to, then that could work.

Yeah, that's just it - one way of looking at Bantam is as a split between the mystical aspects of the Force versus military and politics, hence my post above about a Dark Lord punch-up!

It's a pity the audio version of DE is hard to get hold of these days as it does make some things about DE much clearer.