EUC S.O.S. Save Our Skywalker (Temp Edition)

Child


That's both odd and silly! Luke didn't know how to use his lightsaber at that time, and he's a member of the Rebel Alliance, which means he might be in battles often. Why wouldn't Luke carry a blaster???

an oversight on Zahn's part. Considering Luke figured he would be on the ground with the dignitary it would have made more sense for him to carry a sidearm. IIRC maybe the dignitary told him only to bring his saber....



And Han had already told Luke he was willing to have him join him, way back in ANH, when Han was planning to leave before the Death Star arrived. He told Luke he was "good in a fight. I can use you." So Han shouldn't be looking at Luke like an annoying nephew or kid.


exactly, while Luke will always be referred to as "the kid" by Han. that term is used as a friendly nickname by a fellow brother in arms. Han here seem a bit more snarky to his friends than he should in some cases.


True! But Luke as a vengeance killer at nearly age 60 doesn't work for me either. Yet, that seems to be the way Karen Traviss wrote Luke in Sacrifice. So, yes, I was glad to see it confirmed that Luke wasn't the dark man on the throne.

I'm not as opposed to the idea as you are on killing his wife's supposed murderer but the way it was written could be argued for either side you favor. on a opposite note, she also had Luke try to redeem his nephew and capture him alive which isn't as mentioned enough.


I wonder what all that "white eyes" stuff was supposed to be about though?

I think it was the description of the Sith eyes.


It does seem rather "feat-worthy", but for me, it doesn't fit with the visions that Luke was having of the Dark man in Betrayal. Why would Luke say that the dark man didn't exist when he first told Mara, but then, after Jacen killed Nelani, Luke told her that the "dark man exists"? Didn't Krayt exist as a dark man already at the beginning of Betrayal?

Perhaps that was due to Krayt being cloaked by the DS aura. In LotF, Krayt didn't do anything to warrant the Force's attention hence why Luke didn't have any definite details on what he look and perhaps that's why he interprated as him not existing as of yet...ergo he hasn't made his move. as far I remember Luke did recall this dark man would bring pain to the galaxy and to Luke personally before Jacen made any actions towards his downfall.

It's coming to me through currents in the Force, he's all wrapped up in shadows… he brings great pain to the galaxy, and me."


But didn't Luke say in that essential guide that since the only the Jedi can defeat the Sith, that they will be concentrating on the Sith and not really working with the GA on threats like pirates, warlords, etc.: It seemed as though we wouldn't be getting many stories where the Jedi and the GA work together anymore.

i'm not willing to believe one line Luke had in a guidebook will dictate exactly how the jedi order will act for the next 50 years. It's important for the jedi to prioritize the Sith as their #1 enemy but I don't believe the jedi will forgo other type of threats too.


Yes, they could have missed a few. But most of the senators at the end weren't Sith. And I got the impression that it was the people of the galaxy who blamed the Jedi for everything that happened in Apocalypse too.

and i got the impression it was the politcians rather than the common ciziten


We don't really know how many Lost Sith are left at the end of Apocalypse. There could still be more than 5,000, though even that many seems like a huge number for Luke's small Jedi Order. I don't know how many Jedi there are either, but I do think there are likely no more than 300 or 400 Fully trained knights. Do you remember where that 1,000 quote is in Apocalypse?

no, but that quote is in the book.

If he really wanted to help the galaxy so bad, he would have killed Allana, and avoided the question all together. Her existence is perverse, unnatural and a plot device. So much for his "selfless nobility". Jacen is just a stingy selfish self centered person. There's nothing endearing about him and I feel zero empathy for his "plight" because at age 32 and with vast vast knowledge of the force, he chooses to act like a dumb teenager, not a few years out of his teens but 15 years.

kataja: . But at least the Rebellion comics are set earlier - and in them, Luke is already much more experienced. Also Alex Wheelers Scholastic books are set immediately after ANH - and in them Luke is already finding his feet.

So Luke shouldn't be going backwards in Choices of One. He shouldn't be so hesitant and indecisive.


I personally thought Alleginace fine, but CoO awful.

As I've said, I'm not finished with CoO yet, so I can't really compare Luke's characterizations in the two books. However, I do agree with ID that Luke was pretty weak in Allegiance. He shouldn't be a Jedi at that point in the timeline, but Luke shouldn't be clueless and inept either. I didn't like that Obi-wan did everything for Luke. I feel he could have helped show Luke how to do some things that he wouldn't know, but then he should have let him do them himself. Plus, just because Luke couldn't do much with the Force didn't mean that he couldn't do other things. Luke has other strengths and talents besides his Force gifts, and he shouldn't be portrayed as pretty much useless just because he can't use the Force yet.






Skaddix: Well the point of not telling everyone where a hidden temple is obvious I would think. The Sith are obviously going to try to torture the info out of people and while you can count on most masters to take the torture and not talk assuming they are not competent enough to evade capture. The same cannot be said for every jedi knight or padawan.

True, but if one of the reasons for setting up the Jedi Temple was to serve as a sanctuary in case of an attack by the SIth on the "non-hidden" Temple, what good is it if the Jedi don't know where it is??
I found it very odd that even Wolf wouldn't know about the Hidden Temple, but, of course, K'kruhk, who should have been dead long ago, did.







Nobody: There was an arrest warrant for Luke, but he was just caving in to anti-Jedi sentiment.

Isn't it annoying that during Luke's lifetime there *always* seems to be "anti-Jedi" sentiment, when Luke and the Jedi have saved the galaxy and many of those ungrateful "anti-Jedi" people many times over?

Another weakness of the post-NJO novels has been the lack of closure. For instance, in LotF Luke lost a lot- his wife and his nephew being the biggest losses. I'm pretty sure Invincible didn't bother to show the remaining Skywalker-Solo family gathering at the end to talk, for Luke to just meditate and work through his grief or anything like that.

That's a good point, N. I really like those "family/character moments" too, and I think they're important in SW books with characters that we follow through so many books and so much of their lives. Luke losing his wife and Ben losing his mother was a huge and tragic moment in their lives. There should have been some follow-up, some closure. If we could have seen Luke share a tender moment with Force Ghost Mara, it would have helped, I think. But closure isn't one of Del Rey's strong points. They don't even bring closre to their major plot points anymore. It's really unsatisfying.


And I'd prefer Luke acting a bit "idiotic" in the years between ANH and ESB rather than everyone acting like an idiot in the post-NJO time period.

But why would Luke need to be portrayed as "idiotic" at *any* time? Luke isn't an idiot, and it annoys me when it seems that he is portrayed that way.



I accepted the background noise idea for hiding the Sith... at least until Luke visited Korriban, that was too close for my taste. If Luke had never set foot on Korriban in the decades between NJO and Legacy, fine, but that pointless trip in Ascension was really annoying.

I agree. As you said, it was even worse that Luke met Krayt. I don't know what they're going to do now that won't reflect badly on Luke in some way. I almost don't see a good way out of this. If Luke does nothing, it won't be good; and if Luke faces Krayt and Krayt defeats Luke or fools him, tha will be bad too.

And at least it showed the Jedi preparing more for the worst case scenario. Now if only we could see Luke do more of that kind of preparation in the novels.

Definitely! I do hope that Luke is the one responsible for the creation of the Hidden Temple.







jedimasterkenobi02 : This is the main reason that Luke and his crew could use some peace. What was it about the PT era Jedi that gave them 1000 years of peace, cause everywhere else I look in the SW universe there is war upon war. The PT Jedi were doing something right

I do think it's sad that the authors have written Luke's era as one almost constant galactic conflict after another. I would really love to read stories about Luke and his Jedi that take place during a period of relative peace. I'd like to read about them doing things that Jedi do during normal times. I'm really afraid that all we're going to continue to be getting in the future are stories about Luke and his Jedi facing SIth after Sith, because with the Lost Sith and the One Sith, there are so many Sith in that GFFA that Luke probably can't travel a mile without stumbling over one or more. It's certainly *not* what I was hoping for as a future for Luke. It definitely *would* be nice for Luke and his family and Jedi to experience some peace.

I miss Bantam too...






instantdeath: I found Luke infinitely more clueless in Allegiance.

I found Luke to be extremely clueless in Allegiance too. The example that you mentioned about Ben Kenobi entering that code for Luke was very, very annoying to me!







jedimasterkenobi02: Why would Luke not be second guessing everything at that point, he has had no formal training as a Jedi yet is is still very green in the Rebellion

Second-guessing himself about the Force and not knowing how to use the Force to do things at this time, is perfectly fine. However, even though Luke was EXTREMELY green when he first joined the Rebellion in ANH, we saw Luke demonstrate leadership characteristics even in that first mission against the Death Star. We saw Luke's resourcefulness also in ANH when he quickly came up with an idea for rescuing the princess and when he used his harpoon and cable to swing himself and Leia across the chasm. Luke showed calm under pressure in that Death Star run too.

Luke is an action-oriented character, and as a young man was quick to act, sometimes without thought. He is also a character who has many talents that don't involve the Force that I feel we should see in use in Allegiance and CoO. I felt that Luke was too naive and too inept and clueless in Allegiance. I'm hoping that I like his characterization better in CoO when I read the rest of it.



More later....

Just to clarify, Jedifirefly, all of those quotes were Sinrebirth's, not mine. That's a good point that if Jacen had killed Allana, he actually could have saved the galaxy a lot of pain and conflict. Jacen also would have lived and not been a Sith. Luke wouldn't have lost Mara. Abeloth and the Lost Sith wouldn't have endangered the galaxy either, as neither would have been released. Ship wouldn't have been released on the galaxy either. Wow! When you think about it, the galaxy would have been a very, very different place.

You're right that Allana's conception was rather "perverse and unnatural" in that Jacen basically slept with Tenel Ka to get her to loan her fleet. Then Tenel Ka purposely lengthened her pregnancy so no one would know that Jacen was the father. ..

I simply thought it was an interesting notion. No one ever does the most abbreviated thing. Jacen didn't know about the real Sith, at that time. And he didn't kill Krayt anyway. He didn't do a lot except enable stranded Sith to come into the capitol and act like idiots. It reminds me of Depa's comment in Shatterpoint. She told Mace the best most intelligent thing to have done on Geonosis, was to drop a huge bomb on the arena, killing the Seperatists, Anakin, Obi-wan and Padme. It's would have gotten rid of the Death Star and Dooku, Jango and Boba, and the Nemoidians all in one fell swoop. And thousands of Jedi wouldn't have died. The war wouldn't have started. She was RIGHT.

Sinrebirth : Oh, yes, because killing one's daughter to save the galaxy is going to help.

I agree with you that it would have been wrong for Jacen to kill his daughter. But I don't feel that Jacen needed to go Sith to save his daughter. It was because Jacen became a Sith Lord that all of the terrible things happened. Not only did Jacen himself cause much death and destruction as a Sith, including Mara's death, but he also unleashed the terrors of Abeloth and the threat of the Lost Sith and Ship.

I still say that all Jacen needed to do was share his vision with Luke. Together, Luke and Jacen could have prepared for Krayt (and fought him together, if necessary), and they could have found a way to protect Allana. It's never a good idea to try to fight darkness with darkness or to do evil to prevent evil. It doesn't work and by doing evil, Jacen became evil. We now know that Jacen caused far more problems than he solved, with the release of the Lost Sith and Abeloth.

I don't believe that Jacen saved the galaxy from Lumiya's "Grand Scheme" either. In fact, he did some things that actually helped her in her plans. Again, if Jacen had remained a Jedi and if he would have shared the fact that Lumiya was "in town", so to speak, with Luke, they could have worked together to defeat Lumiya. Despite the fact that I hate the fact that Luke killed her for revenge, it was actually Luke who stopped Lumiya; not Jacen.

Jacen didn't face or kill Krayt. I'm not willing to concede that Jacen prevented Krayt from assuming the Throne of Balance (even temporarily) either. As I've said before, we know the future is always in motion. Luke has already seen a different vision than Jacen did. Luke's vision may not end up coming to pass either. I don't think we can say that Jacen going Sith changed the vision from Krayt on the throne to Allana on the throne. Whether Jacen became a Sith or remained a Jedi, Allana might have been on the throne. (And it's still possible that she may not end up on the throne.) Lots of things can affect the possible futures. The future can't always be predicted or "seen", and visions can be interpreted incorrectly, as was the case with Luke's vision of Mara in SotP in which to Luke, it appeared that Mara was dead.

I agree that Jacen was a hero in the NJO, but I don't feel that Jacen was a hero at all in LotF. He didn't save anyone. Jacen was the villain. He caused much grief and many problems for the galaxy in general, and for Luke in particular. If only Jacen would have been smart and confided in Luke when he had his vision of the Dark Man, things would have been vastly different.


"There can be a few hundred warriors at most. The whole Jedi Order numbers barely more than a thousand, and that includes the students they removed from beneath the Lost Tribe's guard at Ossus." (Wynn speaking)

Thanks for the numbers! Okay, so that seems to say that there are about 300 fully-trained Jedi.

So, the majority of those six thousand Sith on Coruscant have been killed, including several of the thirteen High Lords. The Jedi killed a lot more Sith than the Jedi lost. Ten thousand Sith casualties during this year would probably not be a particularly unfair ball-park guess.

Yes, I agree that the Jedi killed more Sith than the Jedi lost, but that's a really good thing since there were many more Sith than Jedi. We seem to have a ballpark figure for dead Sith, but we still don't know how many are alive. If Vestara was right about 15,000 (though I don't know if that was how many were just on Coruscant or altogether), then there are probably still 5,000 left dispersed and hiding in the galaxy for Luke and the Jedi to still defeat, right?




Jedifirefly5: Jacen didn't know about the real Sith, at that time. And he didn't kill Krayt anyway. He didn't do a lot except enable stranded Sith to come into the capitol and act like idiots.

AND release Abeloth to cause Luke, the Jedi, and the galaxy even MORE trouble.

Well he certainly wouldnt have been the Good Guy had he done that in the same way that him turning Sith to accomplish his goals made him no longer the Good Guy. Considering Jacen wasnt the good guy of LotF or FotJ, him running through his daughter would certainly have him live up to his big talk. I agree though it doesnt sound like Star Wars to me and is certainly not something I'd like to read

Being the good guy means that you dont necessarily just do the most direct easy solution. Sometimes being the good guy means doing the hard thing

Luke in the OT was the good guy by choosing to sacrifice himself to save his father after he set things up for the Rebellion to destroy the death star. He didnt let his personal biases and goals override the goals of the larger cause.

Jacen chose the selfish route by keeping everything to himself to prevent his daughter who he was keeping secret from sitting on a mystical throne with a Sith. While i admit it wasnt the easiest route, it was by far the most selfish, which in its own way is incredibly easy.

I like Zahn. I enjoyed Allegiance and CoO was pretty good over all. I would like to see him try his hand in a new post fotj novel though.

He's said point blank that he won't write in that era. Can't really blame him.

Jacen wasn't trusted by most of the Order after his return, so why should he share any of his fears with any of them? I also fail to see how wanting to keep your daughter from joining the Sith is a selfish act.

On a related note, how is Allana's birth unnatural? Tenel Ka knew what she was asking, as did Jacen. That is my problem with the retcon: it leads you to believe that the two of them didn't love each other.

No, wanting your daughter to not join the Sith itself isn’t the selfish act. That’s not even an act. That’s a basic hope every Force sensitive parent of a Force sensitive child has.

His reaction to that desire is the act and Jacen’s was incredibly selfish. Jacen chose, based on a vision that had galactic implications, to keep it all to himself, in part because he was confident in his own abilities, but also to prevent anyone from getting in his way. I’d say it’s incredibly selfish to put your own specific personal desires against everything and everyone else in the galaxy. He was willing to let everyone else die and he was more than willing to kill anyone who either got in his way and was placing his own desires as his only priority. He didn’t care if his daughter had a mother, he was fine to sacrifice her. He didn’t care if she had grandparents, he was fine to attempt to kill his own parents. He didn’t care if his daughter had a great grandmother, he was fine to destroy her mind (despite her being evil herself, I’d say his act is right up there with anything she ever did)

He also didn’t bother to attempt to find a peaceful solution to keeping Allana from standing by Krayt’s side. Perhaps train her in the light, to avoid the darkness at all costs? Perhaps prepare her for the trials that will come to her (which will still come to her despite anything Jacen could have ever done). Perhaps talk it over with Luke, who has face the dark side more than Jacen ever did, despite what Jacen’s ego was telling him?

Who said her birth was unnatural? I think it was unexpected maybe, as I remember Tenel Ka was specifically asking Jacen to spend the night with her, but I don’t remember or know why it would be assumed she would definitely get pregnant after one night. And wasn’t Jacen surprised when he first met Allana, which I know was based on it being longer than normal, but Tenel Ka said she slowed things down in the force or something.


The bottom line is that Luke and the Jedi gave no reason for Jacen to not trust them with any of this, when he first came back. He selfishly chose to keep it to himself, in large part because he had trouble with someone telling him he was wrong.

OneSiouxFan

Jacen wasn't trusted by most of the Order after his return, so why should he share any of his fears with any of them?

It's been a long time since I read the DN trilogy, so I guess I don't remember how most of the Jedi Order reacted to him. However, I *do* remember that Luke trusted Jacen enough to let him take his young son. Jacen didn't need to tell everyone about his vision. He only needed to tell Luke. And Luke would have listened and helped. I do remember that when Jacen returned, he was rather aloof. Pehaps that's why some of the other Jedi didn't trust him. He was different and they didn't know him anymore.

But Luke would have been very open to Jacen if Jacen would have been willing to confide in him. It certainly would have been MUCH better than Jacen going Sith to try to solve the problem on his own.

Seems a bit ridiculous to expect Jacen to kill Alanna in order to save the galaxy, especially since few condemn Anakin for not simply taking Yoda's advice and letting Padme die (of course she'd have lived if he hadn't done anything, but of course he was not going to take that chance).

And Jedifirefly, the part you're quoting from Shatterpoint... I'd actually that the point was that she was right. And wrong at the same time. Mace even notes how that would have been the tactically efficient thing to do; after all, two Jedi and a Senator are worth winning a war, are they not? But they can't make that choice. Mace notes that it's both to their benefit and their downfall that the Jedi just aren't soldiers. They're incapable of making tactical sacrifices, because that's simply not in their code. If they were to attempt to become soldiers, they would no longer be Jedi. It's why, I think, it makes sense for the Jedi to have not taken part in the Mandalorian Wars, because they were aware the Jedi would make for lousy soldiers. Revan's army was so unlike a normal Jedi army, and I think that's how it they won (the prequel order would never, ever allow Revan to destroy Malachor V in order to defeat the Mandalorians).

Not at all saying the Jedi are right for refusing to compromise ideals in order to win a war and save thousands of lives (though you could argue they compromised an ideal by using the Clone Armies, but that's another argument. Besides, I see that more as the Republic's decision than the Jedi). Not saying they're wrong either. It's just who they are, really.

I will agree that Jacen was selfish. He was selfish to not trust Tenel Ka; he was selfish to base his actions off of a vision. But he NEVER made a move against Tenel Ka. From his view, Han and Leia were 'responsible' for the attack on the Fountain Palace. Should he have stopped to think about what he was doing? Yes. Should he have talked about it with Tenel Ka? Yes. But, the two of them WERE in the Palace when it was clear that SOMEONE was trying to kill the Chume'da, and they were 'fleeing the scene'. That, for me, is the most interesting point of most of LOTF. There are many, many, times where it seemed that one person or another would mis-read an event, and it would leading to other, bigger, problems. I kept thinking that, sooner or later, cooler heads would prevail.

As to Ta'a Chume: I have trouble feeling any sorrow for her. She tried to have Allana killed and she alluded to the fact that she was going to continue to try to kill Allana. She had made attempts on Tenel Ka. After several attempts, she was finally successful in murdering her daughter-in-law. She murdered her first son. There are plenty of things about Jacen I do not approve of (and that are fully covered in this forum), but giving Ta'a Chume a stroke is NOT on that list. She was an evil, soul-less woman, and should have been put to death after her first attempt on Teneniel.

Yeah I kept thinking the same thing as well.

I found it just a bit out of character for everyone to have such instant mistrust of each other

And to keep Luke in the discussion…he was the one out of everyone who gave Jacen the most leeway and the largest benefit of the doubt. And to be honest, at that time in all their lives/ careers, he had the most responsibility and the most justifiable reason to turn against Jacen, given his position. Han and Leia have been relegated to heroes who can do whatever they want, whenever they want. And Jaina was just a Jedi Knight. Luke led the Jedi Order, and was responsible for much more. Yet he was the one with the most compassion up to a certain point

I am not saying that she deserved any mercy or sympathy at all, but just that as a decent person, that is something you don’t do. He turned into someone who felt he was all-knowing and decided to be judge, jury and executioner all in one thought, based on his probing her mind.

And then he hides it from everyone else. If you are actually justified in what you are doing, you shouldn’t need to spend years hiding all of your actions from everyone. If you are the only one who is allowed to know about it, if you are the only one who is allowed to be in on the decisions being made, if you are the one who gets to decide who lives and who dies, and anyone else who finds out about any of the things you have done is your enemy just for knowing these things…..then chances are you are not as morally superior as you think you are

I guess that we will not agree about Ta'a Chume. She flat out tells him that: "...If I disappear, Tenel Ka is a target. If I am killed, Tenel Ka is a target..." (I'm writing a fanfic about Jacen set in LOTF, and I had to 'research' this scene as I feel that 'my' Jacen needs to explain his actions to Tenel Ka) It seems to me that she thinks that she has Jacen and Tenel Ka by the short ones, and that she is above the law. Her intent is pretty clear, and I think Jacen was justified in his actions. To tie it in with the scope of the forum: Luke hunted down and killed Lumiya, and we view that as justifiable. How is Jacen any different?

I agree that the mistrust everyone had was wa-ay out of character, but I feel that Mara was the one in the Skywalker household that still trusted her nephew. I never got the feeling that Luke trusted him at all, but was only trying to humor his wife.

Oh I agree with your description of her intent completely. I just don’t feel that a Jedi should ever be justified to do that to another person who was helpless and they are not in a combat situation.

I don’t equate it to Luke killing Lumiya for a few reasons:
1. because Luke and Lumiya were engaged in combat first (I forget the specifics)
2. Lumiya wasn’t just a politician, she was a viable threat who (the old saying goes, how you cant take a Sith alive as a prisoner, etc)

That said, I don’t necessarily agree that Luke was justified completely in his actions, just that since it was a combat situation with a Sith, that provides the leeway

Ta’ Chume was no threat to Jacen, and was actually completely helpless


By this justification, Jacen would be spending his entire lifetime hunting down and giving brain aneurisms to every Hapan who has any political ambition and wants the throne. Sure, Ta Chume was probably going to be the one who wanted Allana dead the most, but let’s not forget that she wasn’t the only one. This is what Tenel Ka has dealt with her entire life, and hasn’t resorted to turning to the dark side and destroying people’s brains

Yes, you are right, a lot of it was due to Luke having some trust in Mara, as well as humoring her. But the point still remains that he didn’t instantly condemn Jacen the way others did, and even at Mara’s funeral, he was looking to make peace. Everyone else, Han, Leia, Jaina, all seemed to flip against each other at a moments notice. They looked like the most dysfunctional family ever. Jaina whines that her superior officer grounded her for disobeying orders, then doesn’t want her parents to know about it because she is embarrassed. She has immediate distrust of her twin brother. Han and Leia decide their son is the devil without really talking to him. It just all felt rushed, yet the series seemed to drag.

Ta'a Chume was in a bath, but was in no way 'helpless'. I will agree that she was no threat to Jacen, but she was a very clear threat to both Allana and Tenel Ka. She wanted the throne and was going to stop at NOTHING to get it. This wasn't just political ambition, this was clear homicidal intent. Notice that there has been a decided LACK of attempts on the Queen Mother after Ta'a Chume has left the scene. If Jacen would have done nothing and Ta'a Chume had killed Tenel Ka (as it is pretty clear that she intended to do just that), we would be having the argument: 'Why didn't Jacen do anything? He knew that she was a threat.' Everyone would be saying that it was just the same ol' Jacen: unable to make a hard choice; just like at Centerpoint.

At least we agree about Jaina.

Back to Luke: The only reason that he and Lumiya were in combat was because he hunted her down. By that point, she hadn't actually DONE anything to anybody (aside from talking Jacen into his damn 'Sith' thing), so the threat she posed was circumstantial. I would've loved to have seen her arrested. We need a good legal thriller in SW. As an aside, there was one of the 'X-Wing' books that had the Twi-lekk pilot (I cannot remember his name) act as defence for one of the pilots.