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Lit So, whatever happened to the Confederation?

Discussion in 'Expanded Universe' started by Ghost, Jul 3, 2012.

  1. Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Master

    Again, Thrackan died weeks before the Confederation came into existence. He was President of the Five Worlds, which became just one of many member states of the Confederation after Thrackan's death. He was in no way affiliated with the Confederation.
  2. Crimson Zephyr Jedi Master

    Corellia was the pre-eminent member state of the Confederation. It was based in that sector and its fleets were mostly Corellian. Its most prominent flag officers were Corellian and its leaders were mostly Corellian. And frankly, trying to use Centerpoint Station on Coruscant (endangering a trillion lives, Corellian expatriates included) made Corellia and every Confederate world deserving of being bombed back into stone age-level civilization.

    The Galactic Alliance's biggest mistake was in not making their peace with the Confederation a Roman peace -- beating them again and again and again until their entire society was crapping blood and begging for mercy. A society that views people like Han Solo and Booster Terrik as their exemplars deserve nothing less.
  3. GenAntilles Jedi Master


    I believe the great Jacen Solo attempted such a 'Roman' peace when he tried to Base Delta Zero Kashyyk and Fondor to make an example of them. How did that work out for him again? [face_thinking]

    So the Corellians deserve no mercy for trying to use Centerpoint on Courscant, what about the GA for slamming an asteroid into Commenor? By your standards every GA world, Confederation world, Hutt world, Imperial world, etc... would be bombarded back into the stone age.

    I'd also argue that Han Solo and Booster Terrik are better exemplars for a society than Palpatine and Jacen Solo.

    Were the Confederation members saints? No. But for every wrong they did the GA did the same thing. There hasn't been a decent government in Star Wars since... since... well I'm sure there was on off-screen.
  4. Crimson Zephyr Jedi Master

    Jacen didn't go far enough. Sharing power with Niathal left him too fettered to truly tear apart his enemies as should have been done.

    Greater numbers, the greater the atrocity. Coruscant has a trillion beings. Commenor a fraction of that. Commenor was worth less. And Corellia was acting against Alliance law, laws which it was obligated to follow as a member of the Alliance. That's what started the war. They basically declared that they could do whatever they wanted, that they were outside the law. If their actions lead to every Corellian being brutally killed, so be it. They should have thought about it before being belligerent, they should have considered that the Alliance would respond in kind.

    They rebelled because they weren't being allowed to throw their weight around in peace time. Are you seriously saying these people should be tolerated? No. They should be eradicated one by one until they beg to rejoin and become unquestioningly loyal.

    And if a society behaved like Han Solo, anarchy would follow. Law would never be maintained, and no form of authority could ever be put in place. Look how the New Republic turned out with those exemplars.
  5. Sinrebirth SWC, ToR and EUC Mod-Imperator

    And the converse is the GA turning into the Empire, and wantonly destroying planets, poisoning worlds and committing genocide on a scale unseen beforehand.

    Neither side was 100% in the right, which is why it was such a polarising (and in my opinion, good) series. Of course, when you have a terrible villain poised to crush everyone, such considerations tend to be swept aside. Which is what Jacen ended up being, ostensibly.

    The New Republic under Mon Mothma and Leia was a delightful government. I absently want the Galactic Alliance era to be rounded off by the 'Restored Republic' being declared.
  6. Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Master

    But your argument was based on Thrackan... who died before the Confederation even existed...

    Saying that the Confederation's prominent flag officers are Corellian is also speculation. Inferno shows us a few Bothans during the parlay at Kashyyyk, and Fury shows us the Corellians operating independently of the greater Confederate hierarchy (and consequently being cut off from Confederate aid by Phennir, showing that the Confederation can and did operate independently of the Five Worlds government for a while). It's tempting to conflate the Five Worlds with the Confederation, but the latter was greater than the former and even gave the former a temporary time-out during the war. The Corellians we see in Fury are operating on behalf of the Five Worlds, not the Confederation.
  7. Havac Moderator of Your Temporary Lit Substitute

    Exactly. There's no world-building going on anymore. They're not expanding anything. They're not coloring in the recurring main cast's surroundings and supporting cast. They're just basically-ignored backdrops for action and idiocy. Even Abeloth and the Lost Sith, the only things FOTJ spent any actual effort building, are underdeveloped. It's like they just start with about three ideas and then run off nine books on autopilot. We already know the main people, so why bother world-building anymore?

    The post-NJO has five more books than the NJO; that's more than 125% the NJO's size. It has about half the universe-building. If that.
  8. Mechalich Jedi Master

    And the NJO's universe-building was heavily focused on the Yuuzhan Vong and the New Jedi Order. Not bad things to do, considering the nature of the series, but the Vong went off and vanished at the end of the series (thankfully), so none of that material had any real viability going forward. The Force-based material was ultimately rejected and subsequently written off - at a great deal of effort expenditure in LotF. So, aside from a few new Jedi characters, a few new military characters, and a few new politicians, the post NJO was mostly stuck relying on Bantam elements.

    Of course it doesn't help that the novels were essentially forced to stand alone. The current flagship project of the universe is TCW, the video games have been focused on earlier eras with Force Unleashed and TOR, and the comics have been elsewhere. Even the SAGA rpg, which added a lot of detail to the 22 BBY-5 ABY period, never got involved with the NJO or its immediate aftermath. Invasion is really the first attempt to delve back into things, and its well...yeah.

    My suggestion: new Kyle Katarn game Jedi Knight: Battlemaster, set during the Second Galactic Civil War. He already gets to fight Jacen, so we have a plot point to build around, and he's a known commodity to draw fans and something that some cool world building (foiling the GAG, building Jedi Coalition alliances, etc.) could center around.
  9. blackmyron Jedi Master

    But the Vong didn't vanish at the end, nor did the effects of the war, or... well I guess it did. After Luceno set up the post-NJO galaxy, it was all promptly ignored in favor of a reset button - except, oddly enough, the Legacy comic series which despite being a hundred years later is more faithful to the events of the NJO than the three series immediately following.

    WOTC did put out one tepid sourcebook for the NJO, but it was poorly put together due to it being made in the earlier days when most of their sourcebooks were garbage.

    Both the Essential Atlas and EGTW has made great strides in giving us background for the post-NJO era that was denied at the time, but it does really need (as well as the NJO) a sourcebook of its own - maybe, down the road, FFG's Star Wars RPG will oblige (but that would be a long, long time, relatively speaking, in the future)
  10. Havac Moderator of Your Temporary Lit Substitute

    Leaving aside what Myron said, the NJO gave us a fully-fleshed out Advisory Council, a developed political situation in the Senate, a large array of naval commanders, a look at major new developments in characters' lives, new fringe characters, the most incredibly fleshed-out antagonists ever (complete with a full society), our biggest look into the Imperial Remnant aside maybe from HOT, new friends and allies and new relationships for the next generation, a full look at the state of the Jedi Order, a full understanding of the war's effects on both various parts of the galaxy and the galaxy as a whole, a tying-together of the entire Bantam picture. It built a full universe which its events and main characters inhabited. It was more than just a backdrop.

    DNT/LOTF/FOTJ have given us no clue what the hell is going on in the Senate, no clue who's important or what's going on in the GA other than in the COS's office. The GA is a complete backdrop for the COS and the plot as a whole. They've got a handful of military commanders, but we really don't know what's going on there, either. The Supreme Commander is a mystery. We once got a single namedrop of who Rogue Leader was, when he died. We've got no idea who was Rogue Leader for 99% of the post-NJO, much less the identity of a single other Rogue. We know absolutely jack about the fringe. We don't understand anything about the Remnant except that there were Moffs, and then Pellaeon came back somehow we never heard about and then "Bad Moffs" was the full extent of our knowledge until we got "Jag is the leader, and also Bad Moffs who don't like him are important somehow." No lasting new next-generation characters have been established and the existing ones' supporting cast has been dismantled or never established. We never knew what the hell the GA-Confederation war even looked like, and now we don't even know why the hell the Confederation apparently still exists or what it is or what it's doing or who's in it. The Jedi have been anonymized into Luke, Jaina, "the Council" as a single entity, and "all the schmucks in the StealthX wings." Nobody knows what the ****'s going on with Kam and Tionne, or even what's going on outside the Jedi Temple on Coruscant itself.

    We don't know a damn thing about the GFFA anymore. It's just a backdrop for the surviving main characters. There's no world-building making it larger than the "adventure" of the hour.
  11. Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master

    It's sad, but I believe that I made a very wise decision in stopping after the NJO. At this point, the post-NJO is yet to be written as far as I am concerned.
  12. Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Master

    The NJO set up tons of potential with which future books could roll. The post-NJO planning teams chose to ignore all of it; if they were "stuck" doing anything, it was their own idiotic fault.
    Force Smuggler and Zeta1127 like this.
  13. Force Smuggler Jedi Grand Master

    It would have been cool seeing Lumpy and Lowie on the Falcon with Han and Leia. I wish they showed what happened to Droma and the rest of the Ryns after the NJO as well. We haven't seen Danni Quee, Nas Choka, Harrar, Zonoma Sekot or the Widowmaker since. We didn't see how Tahiri recovered completely from the Riina Kwaad thing.
  14. Maverick1015 Jedi Master

    Whats unfortunate is that it wouldn't be difficult at all to fix these problems. I remember in Zahn's Hand of Thrawn series the Imperial Remanant had decent descriptions of the moffs and the Empire's gov't in the very brief Pellaeon chapters. There were 8 remaining imperial sectors with 8 moffs. Several of them were named and described in some way. Pellaeon was clearly the executive power of the empire at the time as commander in chief more or less. The planets of Bastion, Yaga Minor, and Munnilist are depicted in acceptable amounts of detail. After these two books nothing that Zahn established about the Remanent is maintained from the new jedi order series onward. The empire just has moffs. alot apparently.

    Just following Zahn's style and having points of views related to the major factions and explaining how they work. Tenel Ka could make references to the Hapans. The Bothan Admiral dude, or Leia for that matter, could elaborate on the Galactic Alliance here and there. Jagged Fel could do the empire. Etc. These characters or other could just based on their actions or just what is going on could be used to clear up the confusion surrounding all of the major factions. It would also be nice if they did some world building for significant planets other than coruscant. It seems that in Fate of the Jedi the only planets that get any attention are Coruscant or random planets Abeloth goes too.
  15. Maverick1015 Jedi Master

    Just for fun as a side note I am going to briefly make educated guesses on a couple of the factions and explain how I believe their gov'ts might function.

    Imperial Remanent- At this point I believe the Empire was working with Pellaeon as the Executive branch for an extended period of time as defacto Chief of State and Supreme Military commander. When he died the moffs were simply sharing power and enjoying not being kept in check by Pellaeon. When Fel became chief of state he became Chief of State but not directly the supreme military commander but rather delegated this power to admirals. Now that the new admiral guy (sorry im not good with names) is in control he may function a bit more like Pellaeon being chief executive and proactive military commander. You could essentially call the empire a military state. The empire is run by an unknown number of moffs overseeing sectors (almost like states of the USA) they act like governors and can compete with each other for control and have private military resources, likely due to the death of Pellaeon and disrespect for Fel. To put a number on sectors i would say something like 30-40 would be reasonable from what can be pieced together from the limited book info. Probably like 10 female moffs or so. I would assume every imperial planet has a governor appointed by the moffs. There probably isnt much overlap of power inbetween the moffs, but imperial law dating back to the empire origin is probably pretty uniform ina ll the sectors. Citizens of the empire likely only gain representation through working their way up the military or civilian adminstration to become governors or moffs. Now that chief of state is an elected post there could be more democrization in the future.

    Hapans- I assume this is essentially a decentralized monarchy with other noble familys with their own holding within Hapan space. The queen mother is a Queen with supreme executive power, but likely raised and instructed to used it within limits. There is probably something of a legislative branch made up of the noble families where they work out policies for Hapan space but Tenel Ka can overule it if she feels it necessary. There could even be a civilian legislative house made up of all women with limited power though if there was one it probably wouldnt have much power at all. The Hapans seem to have a strong cultural attacment to the Queen mother so there probably isnt any signifcant democracy movements or equality of sexes or anything like that.

    Confederation. Govt is probably along the lines of the US Articles of Confederation or the Confederate states of AMerica. The individual planets have their own govts and can do as they see fit. They also have their own militarys but the conferation has a joint military leadership, headed by that Phennir guy. Probably essentially more of a military alliance whose members planned for a very decentralized govt if they had outright won the war. At this point their status must be more of a limbo state with some members integrating back into the GA. I assume Bothawui may be one of several Confederation planets playing both sides at this point.

    I would elaborate on the Galactic Alliance but we know enough about it to make a brief paragraph unneccessary. It would be nice to know more about how many planets a senator represents. Some books say they represent sectors or groups of planets, and sometimes only one. If its one senator per planet i find it hard to beleive that a senate with a few hundred thousand members gets anything done. I would assume that some senators represent a planet and all of its colonies with close ties. Like the Bothans would have a senator representing all of Bothan space or any planet that has colonies would be representated as one entity. The books are simply never clear. I would assume that sector or groups of planets beign represented would be more effective considering that the GA deals with at least a few hundred thousands members, if not millions (the specific number of members would be a nice thing to be established). But the newly revolted slave planets were all just given individual senators which may mean that it is one senator per planet.

    Well heres my ramble on the subject. I havent read every book in the EU so feel free to add anything I missed or got wrong in my summaries/ questions about these factions. These are the big three factions right now +Hapan Cluster( i included them because they are important to the plot not because i think they are on par with the other 3). It would also be nice to know more about the Chiss, or Hutts, or Bothan space govts, or any other factions important to the Setting.
  16. AdmiralNick22 Jedi Grand Master

    All hands, stand by for my rant of the day:

    "What Could Have Been: The Post-NJO Galaxy According to James Luceno"

    Nothing make me sadder about the state of the current Expanded Universe than re-reading The Unifying Force. Which in itself is sad, as it is one of the greatest EU works in the last decade and a half. James Luceno, Knight of the Expanded Universe and continuity guru, mastermind of the NJO series, gave us a blueprint for the post-Yuuzhan Vong galaxy.

    Which was promptly ignored. [face_sigh]

    Instead of ranting one for pages about how LOTF and FOTJ completely dropped the ball and wasted 21 books, I thought it would be interesting to look back on the post-NJO as Luceno imagined it. And see how much more nuanced and exciting it would of been.To borrow some wording from the Declaration of Independence, "let the facts be submitted to a candid world":
    • A truly Galactic Alliance, the first galactic government encompassing the galaxy since the Republic
    • The galactic capital was Denon, a powerhouse in the Inner Rim
    • Coruscant was to be rebuilt... over decades at the least
    • The Yuuzhan Vong were on the path to a new society on Zonoma Sekot
    • Yuuzhan Vong hardliners were to be tracked down by Galactic Alliance Navy, with help from Nas Choka
    • Luke Skywalker challenged his New Jedi Order to think differently and not fall down the path of the OJO
    • Jacen & Jaina Solo, as well as young Ben Skywalker, along with the remaining crop of the next generation of Jedi, were the bright future of the Jedi
    • Galactic society was turned upside down - Kuati and Corellians had lost power & prestige, Bothawui, Sullust, Dac, and other Mid and Outer Rim worlds were now bigger players. The Hutts were weakened and on the decline
    • The Chiss were slowly coming out of seculsion and rejoining galactic society
    • A good Chief of State, Cal Omas, committed to not using Alpha Red and work to get the galacy stiched back together. Oh, we also had a Senate that wasn't a bunch of crooks
    • Han, Leia, Wedge, and the older generation were finally retiring. The future was to the next generation
    • The future was bright and unknown
    Instead, we got Prequel rehashes, shoddy storylines, insane characters, and 21 books which essentially did nothing to enrich and grow the EU. :(

    Alas, one can only wonder how the EU would of ended up if Luceno's blueprint was followed.

    --Adm. Nick
  17. ceiranharmony Jedi Master

    As much as I agree with the lost potiental, I have to say... it is the same the NJO did to the future Zahn's Vision of the Future tried to steer towards with the Unknown Regions and more. the same the YJK novels prepared and got ignored, character relationships torn apart without explanations given by the NJO. still I love the NJO for what it brought positive and new. Same with LOTF, FOTJ etc. they ruined, forgot and ignored a lot sadly, but they also gave us a lot that I would not want to miss.

    new characters were created, just not enough, and they died too quickly again sadly, but some still live... Zel Twins for example. LOTF tried to show us the inside of a fall to darkness from Jacen's pov, which actually was believable despite us wishing otherwise for Jacen after TUF. LOTF even brought back that conflicts and enemies are much more emotionally and personally tied to heroes. No noob warlord of the month or such but relatives as enemies that tear families apart as sad as it is, that was interesting, even if not executed perfect. same for FOTJ, many cool moments, but overall a lot missing, ignored and not at all executed to the best way possible. I am aware of the issues and rant about them myself too often. Still I appreciate and love the books for what they actually did that I do like, even if sometimes it's minor stuff, background stuff only, single scenes or quotes.

    Actually I think Legacy comics ruined and destroyed more by presetting certain future paths than LOTF and FOTJ combined ever could... individually legacy has great characters, ships, designs, stories. But in light of its relation to the books and other eras it just was not where it should be... distant future. so I prefer LOTF and FOTJ over Legacy comics myself actually.
  18. Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Master

    This seems to come up every few weeks. The idea of Legacy ruining and destroying Del Rey's potential is an old and dead argument with no merit at all. It's really nothing more than a weak assertion of "LOTF may have dropped the ball on the post-NJO storyline, but, but, LOTF was limited too!!!!2"

    Nick: Preach on, brother.
    Zeta1127 and RC-1991 like this.
  19. dp4m Jedi Grand Master

    What happened to the Confederation? It didn't have plot shields in the same way that the Big Three or apparently Daala did.

    Also, to Havac's point, post-NJO... OTHER than Kesh and, potentially, the Hutt Treaty stuff... did the later series ACTUALLY world-build anything?
  20. Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Master

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