Discussion in 'Expanded Universe' started by Ghost, Jul 3, 2012.
thx for missing the point by a few lightyears maybe next time you hit it
Ceiranharmony, I agree with your earlier post. I also enjoyed LoTF and FoTJ but I just feel that they drop the ball on much of the back story and focus to much on action. I think that the idea of Jacen decending to the dark side was a very interesting concept. (And we got the closest line to "Luke I am your father" in the books with the "Allana I am your daddy" line). I think Jacen downfall was protrayed very well but in the second half of the series Jacen becomes more of a prop because his character stops being developed and simply becomes an antagonist instead of the initial more anti-hero protrayal. The conflict itself is largely ignored apart from the poorly described battle Jacen personally participates in that focus more on Jacen's sinister actions, the Jedi's struggles against him, and the Mandalorians showing up to wreak havoc. The confederation is more of an excuse to have a war in the series in the later books rather that a clearly defined faction and Jacen is mostly assumed to be in complete control of the galactic alliance, as opposed to protraying him struggling to maintain control. In short alot could have been done to improve these problems and the only thing that would have suffered for it was that we would get a little less constant movie like actions scenes that Ben, and Jaina, and the Mandos, and luke etc were up too.
I would say similar things about FoTJ. I was initially fascinated by the neat use of a political crisis involving the jedi in the first few books. Instead of a war there was a power struggle between Daala and the Jedi. The political mannuvering was interesting and put Leia back into here original niche for a while. But Luke and Ben's quest dominated the series and then Abeloth took over. The Lost Tribe were interesting foes but they were devastated more at the hands of Abeloth than the Jedi which i found somewhat disappointing. The political crisis wasn't resolved in a very interesting way and the whole Abeloth plot line overtook everything.
Bahahaha. What's funny is that you didn't even come close to making a point. I don't care if you like FOTJ and LOTF better than Legacy, but you claimed that Legacy "destroyed" and "ruined" future paths by not being far enough in the future, and you didn't provide anything with which to back the argument up. If you had backed it up, you might have made a point. The argument that Legacy has ruined Del Rey's storytelling has been repeatedly refuted for years and years, most recently in the Apocalypse thread just a few weeks ago. If you'd like to have the argument again, tell me specifically what you think Legacy has ruined, and I'll refute it again.
see you did miss the target again, Flyboy... let me elaborate you how to shoot womprats:
I never said or intended to say that Legacy ruined DelRey's storytelling. Merely that Legacy set some paths in stone for characters or governments evolution, though without specifying when these changes happen aside from vague dating. By that though a part of the future was preset and other alternatives excluded. This did not ruin DelRey's storytelling at all, that DelRey manages to do itself as noted by myself with critique about LOTF/FOTJ in the same post where I praised elements of it. Legacy made sure the One Sith survive, that the Empire prevails in the future and survives and that the Galactic Alliance fails. so all victories by the GA along the way are kinda "it will get destroyed anyway soon"... and that takes a lot of the thrill out of tales. As you hopefully do see now, Flyboy.. I never targeted DelRey storytelling but storypotential. they had a lot to choose from and ruined some themselves, still Legacy took something. DelRey could rule awesome still, as proven with the Jaden Korr novels. So the opinion about Legacy I have is, it is awesome in creating new stuff, people and expanding the universe... but its storylines were too recycled and not interesting enough. LOTF/FOTJ on the other hand were the opposite: great storylines, yet not used to greatness as they could have with too few expanding the universe.
Edit: Oh and Legacy is way too close to the novels... characters in old age would be very alive still... but obviously all died young or not of natural causes since they are NOT around. in the GFFA with 60 = new 40, social services not starting before 120 and human people aging easily up to 200 depending on lifestyle or forceuse, with forceusers known for longer lifespans, 100 years after novels is really not enough. take youngest of the novels... Allana f.e., they especially get the short end again... same for YJK generation and others delrey loves to kill off.
I dont know enough about the Legacy comics to say that it has ruined Del Ray's storyline like Ceiranharmony but if Del Rey adheres to what is established by Legacy then the directions they can go are limited by what happens in a hundred years. For starters Jagged Fel or one of his kids with Jaina or a grandchild will become the galactic emperor. The Empire has to have a rise to power in the coming decades. Darth Kyack (or whatever his name is) will be the leader of the Sith and cannot be killed by Luke Skywalker or any current jedi in Del Ray's storyline, which may mean that his sith have to be ignored for a while or if they are involved in a future conflict then they cannot be completely wipped out. But like I said I don't know enough about it to make a incredibly strong argument but I do think that treating Legacy comics as canonical limit del ray's possible plot directions. Also I feel that some people may simply not like the idea that nothing Luke, Ben, Jaina, Han, or Leia do matters because in a hundred years the GA will be almost destroyed and the Jedi order decimated. A longer time period between the comics and the Del Ray plot line could have helped this.
However now that we know that Jacen changed the future and unleashed Abeloth isnt it possible that the future was changed and that Del Ray could right off Legacy comics as the future that would have happened if Jacen hadn't changed the future. I wouldn't put it past Del Ray to do this.
Sorry Ceiranharmony I wasn't trying to insinuating that you claimed that Legacy ruined DelRey but was just taking Jeff's word for t. I probably should have read your post more carefully. I was just trying to join in the discussion in my own way as opposed to defending everything you were saying. My bad.
Huh. It must have been when you explicitly said "ruined and destroyed" that I got confused.
Also, calling me "Flyboy" doesn't add anything to your argument, nor do anything save make you look like a jerk.
I've never bought that argument at all. It's a huge oversimplification of things. It's also not really correct --- the Galactic Alliance is alive and well at the end of Legacy, so it certainly doesn't fail. The Empire is ruled by a benevolent Empress, and the One Sith are sent into hiding. Legacy may be dark throughout, but it ends on an incredibly hopeful note. Even if they had a seven-year setback, the good guys win.
The fact that they have to face more bad guys in the future --- even ones who give them a hell of a fight --- doesn't take the thrill out of the heroes' victories at all. There's still tons of story potential in the years between FOTJ and Legacy, and it will only take the slightest shred of creativity on Del Rey/LFL's part to tell thrilling tales. If they fail in that regard, it's their own fault.
We're definitely in agreement that Del Rey ruined themselves. We're definitely not in agreement that LOTF and FOTJ had great storylines --- to me, the latter in particular was a disorganized mess that amounted to little more than a slap in the face to its readership. Legacy having recycled storylines? Poppycock. Legacy is the most fresh and original thing to come out of the EU in years. LOTF, on the other hand, is well-deserving of the criticism that it's a rehash of the prequels. When it comes to recycled storylines, LOTF takes the cake.
Nonsense. Legacy showed us a fraction of the Jedi Order, which is something John & Jan have repeatedly pointed out as being indicative of the fact that familiar faces from Del Rey could very easily still be alive. Most of the surviving Jedi were in hiding. If John & Jan had used Del Rey characters, then that would have set their future in stone and been limiting. As it stands, they left it wide open.
Jeff.. I said "ruined and destroyed" I did not say "ruined and destroyed LOTF/FOTJ" but i said "more than LOTF/FOTJ ever..." etc. so your confusion is understandable, but at lest there you understand me now.
Also it is not the darkness of Legacy that I dislike, that was great actually. Most I was concerned by the point about characters in old age able to still be alive. Because I think, when they are Dooku's age or older, they still kick ass like Dooku and others and not hide someplace or let others take the stage. I mean, have them die early would be more epic than have them hide and drink a cup of tea.. that is out of character for them in my opinion.still great points for Jan & Jon which I love for their work, that they kept things vague and possibilities open a lot. I love their characters, would have wished for more spotlight on Marasiah and others instead of Cade's repetitive cycles of drug, no drug, dark, light, and his clumsy attempt of trying to be the worst attempt of uniting dark and light in one person I have ever seen. Jensaarai, Jacen Solo, Vergere were much better at that game. Still I liked they went that route with him and showed us an unexpected Skywalker that is more like a Solo. but every arc, Cade-wise at least, had the same with him back and forth on drugs, dark or light etc. and that was boring, thus the main character got boring fast and support cast, Imp Knights, Marasiah, Bantha Rawk etc. all are way cooler and more interesting than nutcase jerk Cade who was what I meant with repetitive storylines arc after arc. Also my distaste for Legacy stems from my love for A'sharad Hett and the unbelievably stupid way of his fall to the dark side that never convinced me that he turned into Krayt. they just needed some known character to be Krayt... poor Hett, others would have worked better. To boot, Clone Wars era jedi alive and ruling the order in Legacy? come on... Kkruk and Tr'saa are awesome, but not awesome enough to be rulers of the order. that was over the top love for their own characters of old. Have a Voss offspring be a Jedi Master, a Vos Legacy. But not the exact same characters despite them being able to reach oooold age. have them around, sure, but not as jedi rulers. especially cause they are absent in novel era.
Cool. Sorry if I got too heated. I tend to do that sometimes, and if I do, just tell me I'm being a dick and I'll stop. If you dislike Legacy, it's a matter of opinion, and I'm not going to assert that your opinion is wrong or anything. I actually share some of your criticisms --- I was never hot on K'Kruhk or T'ra Saa showing up and leading the Jedi. However, I don't think we should discount the idea of geriatric characters kicking ass somewhere out of the spotlight. For some reason, I've always pictured Lowie battling Knighthunters somewhere in the Kathol Rift...
agreed, I tell you when you tell me when I am
Lowie in Kathol Rift? that would rock! Lowie and Lumpy in the Falcon then
I want ooold Allana as Queenmother, with a relative of her being the one who married Roan Fel, maybe even one descendant of Zekk and his Zel twin! And while the galaxy has fun with the Sith, other old old old heroes have fun in the Unknown Regions against the REAL terrors that would eat Krayt any day
Don't forget Luke being significantly weakened by amphistaff venom and probably forced out of the field.
Abeloth and the Celestials, the Five Worlds government, the Killiks, a bit on the various Force groups FOTJ visited -- little bits of stuff here and there. But very little, and very little of it big-picture stuff that really made the galaxy work as a big setting.
I had forgotten about that. At the time, I recall hoping that Luke would adopt a more Obi-Wan Kenobi style. The ageing sage and Master of the Jedi Order.
But did it REALLY expand on anything with that beyond Centerpoint trilogy (back in Bantam) for Celestials/Five Worlds and WEG/WOTC/Bantam for Force sects?
Killiks I grant you; totally new stuff.
The Five Worlds government, yes. Not much new on the system, but the CT didn't deal with this particular form of government. We also got stuff like that funky sect in Outcast and the Mind Walkers -- it just wasn't stuff that was heavily developed.
Yeah, I'm SOOOO glad we got Killiks!
Plus it was completely forgettable. None of those things made such a mark on the EU that they "expanded" our universe, IMO.
This gives me the beginning of a plan to write a post NJO fan-fic series. Do I have your permission to use your ideas Adm. Nick? I will tie in things from DNT, LOTF, and FOTJ but it will be massive different from what we have now. I've been bouncing ideas around for awhile ever since I started reading A Destiny Altered by An Origami Fish on the New Jedi Order archive under books. It's on a two month hiatus at the minute but it's really good. It's an AU after Star By Star where Anakin Solo lives past Myrkr. It just finished up Destiny's Way and sets up the plot points for their version of the Force Heretic Trilogy
Those ideas are from James Luceno, not my personally. But fire away! Your right to fanfic is unalienable!
No one expects the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion! Sorry couldn't resist. The Bantam team and the Del Rey were different weren't they? I know the authors were the same but what about the creative team? That's no excuse but they have a better reason with the Post YJK series/pre NJO changeover than the Post NJO/pre DNT on. What they should have done was write about some threat in the Unknown regions that was on the run from the Vong and the Vong comes in a decade later but leave hints about the Vong in the series about the Unknown Regions threat.