Lit The (New) Official Apocalypse Discussion Thread

Perhaps I did'nt explain myself very well, sorry. What I am asking is why he felt so betrayed if he already knew?

It was sloppily written, but there's also the fact that when he first learns of the attack from Vestara, he realizes that she's playing Abeloth, and would never loyally serve her. So I think he justifies what she says with the idea that the only way they'll be able to get at her to kill her is to join her. And the way that Vestara explains it, she lets Ben read her emotions easily so he'll know that she's lying about parts of it (even though she is well skilled enough not to let that show), and just lets him make the assumption that she's lying to 'hurt him,' but at the same time reassuring him that she is , in fact, lying. He just assumes that she's lying about the worst parts.

What Ben refuses to see, of course, is that her decision to get back in with the Sith had nothing to do with Abeloth and was purely motivated by her own chances of survival.

But later, Jaina tells him the details about the ambush which Vestara withheld, and confirms the parts of her story that Ben convinced himself she was lying about- and the fact that they were targeting Allana specifically, and Ben can probably deduce quickly enough that it was Vestara who figured out Allana's identity and passed it along.

It's poorly written, but there's at least a semi-explanation for the discrepancy.

IIRC we only saw Ben immediately after the reveal. At that point, he's probably determined to fix his mistake and bring Vestara in, but I think it started to show more later on, when he calls himself a karking fool for believing her. Granted, that's still about being duped, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's still in denial. After all, he and Jaina were going to sedate Vestara and bring her in, not kill her; maybe he thought that he could get Vestara to turn around while she was imprisoned, so at least she wouldn't be able to hurt anyone.

My impression was that Ben knew Vestara was lying about something, but not exactly what. So he didn't know enough at the time (prior to speaking with Jaina) to be sure that Vestara had truly betrayed them (and quite frankly, he probably didn't want to believe it, either, since she's supposed to be his ally now). But Jaina's story made it clear that she had betrayed them.

EDIT: Er, what LexiLupin said, more or less.

Personally I've gotten quite tired of how quickly Vestara keeps switching, pick a side woman! Although I did like how she went to the One Sith at the end because it's basically saying she'll be staying with them and that's the last we see of her (not that I wanted her gone, I liked the whole B/V romance), she can't come back into the fold because that will be revealing the Krayt waayyy ahead of time. I also don't like Abeloth, I find having an all-powerful villain simply ruins the story. Palpatine, Krayt, and Vitiate were pretty damn powerful toward the end but you knew they were killable, and you had seen how they had gotten in those positions of power the first place, so the reader has a kind of closeness and understanding of the villain. And good villains don't always have to be super-powerful, take Thrawn and Mandalore as some superb examples, they were amazing without having the ability to move mountains. But having a villain who can have multiple bodies, do things from across the galaxy, and simply doesn't die is overkill.

They saw themselves in the Pool of Knowledge back in Vortex (ch. 9), way older, and Ves was alone, sad and reaching out for Ben. That tells me she might not be joining the One Sith.

And the other thing at the end. Sith Lord?! Really? She was drifting with events, barely staying alive, forced to do stuff she wanted to avoid. Of course that's a great feat in itself, but if that kind of survival makes a Sith Lord, then Han Solo is the greatest of all time. A Sith Lord is in control, twisting events to his needs and not the other way around.

But that was only a vision. Cade had a vision of himself dying at the hands of an armor-clad Darth Krayt.

I think the image in the Pool of Knowledge was meant to be symbolic.

And, yeah, she's no Sith Lord. Maybe she is by Kesh standards. But a Sith Lord seems to equal Jedi master and Ben isn't there yet. Frankly, I think Ship was talking out of his exhaust port.

Did Ben or anyone ever figure out that Vestara killed that random Jedi we all knew would be killed when she was sent on a mission with Ben and Vestara at the end of Ascension?

Never even mentioned, so presumably not. Natua Wan shall go down in the annals of tragic plot devices, made relevant almost solely for the purpose of being killed in Sithly desperation, a la Nelani Dinn.

At least Nelani was killed in the first book of that series, and I think was actually mentioned later on as a throw in saying that the Jedi suspected Jacen killed her.

Natua was killed in the pivotal scene of the book directly prior to the series finale. And seemed like a perfect setup for revealing Vestara to Ben about not being able to ever fully be a Jedi. But then we get……a new scene where a new reason is shown for Ben to realize she wont ever be a Jedi. And one that basically leaves little wiggle room in Ben’s mind for any hope for her.

Why they set it up for a situation where Vestara made a perfectly honest choice that will ultimately lead Ben to realize they cant be together, yet leave the possibility of her not being completely evil and then abandon it completely, for one where Vestara is basically saving her own skin in a fight for her life, and what, ultimately just resigning herself to being a Sith, because there are no better options is beyond me.

Did Denning not like that whoever wrote Ascension left too much for him to wrap up? Which makes no sense, because Denning’s story of Vestara’s betrayal did little more than her original betrayal (though I guess with the addition of her revealing Allana, that makes it a ton worse, though that could have just been added on easily enough). I am guessing he already had it in his head for Vestara to live and join the One Sith. Why completely abandon the pivotal scene from the book immediately before?

Did Denning even read Ascension?

In all fairness, with the way these 9-book sets are done, the rough draft of Apocalypse was probably well under-way long before the final draft of Ascension was settled.

But the scene with Natua- that's Vestara coming to the realization that she'll never be a Jedi; the realization that one day, she'll probably have to kill Ben to save her own life. It's an important scene, especially the part immediately after when she's watching him sleep and going through the whole thought process. But it's hugely formative for her personality and characterizations in Apocalypse- sticking with the Jedi as long as possible so they can protect her. It's not that she ever completely disowned the Lost Tribe- it's that she can never go back because she killed Taalon.

So I don't think that pivotal scene was abandoned- it sets up her entire mentality going into the assault on Coruscant, and shows just HOW she could turn around and attack the Solos. Survival is key. She killed Natua to survive. She's even willing to kill Ben's family to survive.
The greater question is what she would have done if BEN had been with the Solos. Would she still have done anything to protect his life, or would she have chosen hers over his, if it came to it like that?

Though I do disagree with your assessment that killing Natua was a 'perfectly honest choice' that wasn't 'completely evil.' Sure, it was motivated by love or whatever, but it was still murder of an innocent. There's just as little wiggle room there as there is in attacking the Solos and revealing Allana's identity to the Sith.

And there's very little way for anyone to ever find out that she did, in fact, cause Natua's death. Ben was unconscious, Natua is dead, and Vestara would certainly never volunteer the information. After how close Ben came to dying, I doubt Luke would question the story that Natua succumbed too (well, until now, anyway).

I’d like to think that ending scene should be known to the person who is writing the next book though, at least an outline of it.

I agree with this, that scene definitely was all about Vestara coming to the realization. I guess I am more surprised really that it was not even mentioned in Apocalpyse at all, seeing how major it was in Ascension

That is true.

I do wish Ben would have been with the Solos to actually give us a scene with her making that choice. That would have been pretty powerful

I’ll preface the 'perfectly honest choice' that wasn't 'completely evil’ as in “FOR A SITH and in a galaxy where 9 year olds are expected to know how to efficiently kill. You are definitely right, it was by all accounts, the murder of an innocent. I equate it to Jacen murdering Nelani. Neither was right at all (despite the endless Jacen was justified debates).

My point is that it was a choice done in the defense of another she loved. She didn’t just sacrifice Natua because she was a Jedi, or to save herself. She did it to save Ben.

Knowing Ben as they have characterized him, I think he would have been conflicted in how he felt about that entire situation. If we are to believe that someone had to die for any of them to escape. Now whether that is true or not, I don’t really remember.

Now that choice, had it come out, means Vestara would never be allowed to be a Jedi, and it would have been debatable if anyone would ever even listen to her side of the story given her actions. But Ben, in a vacuum with how desperately he wanted Vestara to be a Jedi, I think would have at least given pause and heard her out. Perhaps even been almost convinced

to me, Ascensions efforts to bring Vestara to the light side, was blindsided by Troy. It makes Golden's novel moot, and even faulty

Oh, totally- would have made Vestara's entire purpose in this series much more meaningful and interesting, I think.
Going into Apocalypse (and not foreseeing the Krayt/One Sith appearance in the slightest), I felt that the only good ending for Vestara would be if she chose to sacrifice herself for Ben or maybe even Luke. After Ascension, she can't really go on with Ben- the last scene does pretty well close the door on that. But some last-minute redemption would have been very powerful like that.
(Not that Ben needs any more tragedy in his young life, but it was never a realistic pairing in terms of a lasting relationship...)

Someone else did bad things to save another he loved- Anakin Skywalker.
It makes it understandable but, honestly, only adds sway to the 'attachment-less Jedi' clause. It's understandable but still a bad choice. And I like to think that if Ben had known the truth- that she sacrificed Natua for himself- he would have preferred that Vestara get Natua out and leave him to die.
(and yes, basically, one of them needed to distract the creature (i.e. die) to enable the others to escape)

I think Ascension was awful in terms of Vestara's bizarre change-of-heart and back again- but Golden wrecked it herself, with the ending. Vestara's 'redemption' was nullified with the murder of Natua and she realizes on her own that the whole Jedi thing just won't happen. Denning just continued on that theme. Which isn't to say that he made her evil. She's selfish and motivated by little beyond her own survival, but she isn't mindlessly 'Dark' (yet).

right, the flip flop by Golden is the real problem i guess. But was this in the script all along, or is this really Golden's doing?

Yeah I was assuming that would happen as well, I didn’t think there was any chance she survived Apocalypse after her killing Natua.

Who was then able to be redeemed though, which I suppose, on some level, might leave the door open for Vestara

Well, it wasn’t a Jedi that made the choice though, is I guess the point. Vestara was all about being a Jedi basically because she loved Ben. Then when forced to make an actual Jedi decision……

And yes, Ben would have preferred Vestara get Natua out, which was the Jedi decision to make.

And Natua would probably have preferred her and Vestara fight the thing together in an effort to save their wounded comrade

Yeah that is my point, she isn’t mindlessly Dark or a completely evil Sith Lord. She made some Sith-like choices that a Jedi never would, and that prevents her from being a Jedi. But it doesn’t make her completely evil.

I wonder what actually is planned to happen next. Will we see the One Sith again before Legacy? Will we ever see Vestara again? The way it was left, it would be a shame to never see her again

The thing is, Sinre, that when I look back over the entire 9 book FOTJ arc it appears that the authors literally threw in most of the stuff you like at the very end in a last ditch attempt to make sense of stuff. All of the other core parts of the LOTF/FOTJ- the Unification Summit, the slavery plot, the various coup plots- all were essentially discarded or wrapped up to hastily. I cannot shake the feeling that the team behind FOTJ just really struggled to get to the end of the series is a somewhat cohesive manner.

The stuff about removing Jagged Fel from the Empire, removing the Jedi YET AGAIN from Coruscant, and other stuff like that makes even less sense, as we know what happens in Legacy. In my opinion, that is either sloppy planning/coordination or a vague attempt to say that the comics don't have to exactly fit with EU novels canon.

In the interview given by Troy Denning, he kept saying the "future is always in motion", which makes my tummy a bit unsettled, though that could be just cause I am so darned pessimistic about the current direction of EU novels in general.

--Adm. Nick

I had to join just so that I could say something about this, because it's bothering me. Did anyone else notice the discrepancy between the events on page 322 and those on 420? As in, Vestara had already told Ben that she'd led an attack on the Falcon, which he had acknowledged as fact. This included her telling him that Bazel Warv died. So his reaction to Jaina telling him about it makes no sense at all. The scene completely broke my suspension of disbelief.

Other than this, I really enjoyed the book. Hopefully we'll get something a little less teen-angsty next, but I am always enthralled by any story that involves ancient galactic history. The connection to the Mortis story from CW made me happy.

If memory serves Ben knows she's lying about some things but not others. So given how he feels about Vestara, and given that he feels she's just playing Abeloth, he probably thinks it could just have been one of the lies. He would have believed the best of Vestara in their first conversation there, and his dialogue shows that he's ready to think everything bad she said was a lie, or at least a not-quite-truth. Despite Jaina revealing Vestara had led the attack, there's no reason for Ben to immediately think the absolute worst of her (that everything else she said she did was true) until Jaina confirms it in the later scene. So Ben could be shocked that it was actually true, rather than shocked because he had no idea Bazel had died.