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Lit Vergere: Jedi, Sith, or something else? (Poll included)

Discussion in 'Expanded Universe' started by Ghost, Mar 25, 2012.


What was Vergere?

JEDI (she's just an Old Republic Jedi, under the influence of the Yuuzhan Vong for too long) 11 vote(s) 21.2%
SITH (she was a secret apprentice under Sidious, and guided Jacen Solo to the dark side) 4 vote(s) 7.7%
OTHER (Vergere was beyond the Jedi and the Sith by the time she returns to the GFFA) 37 vote(s) 71.2%
  1. Ghost Jedi Grand Master

    This topic gave us hundreds (if not thousands) of threads for years on the Literature board, how can we not look back and talk about it now? :p

    To sum up the story, for those who need a refresher:

    * Vergere, as a newly-minted Jedi Knight, was assigned to Zonama Sekot, shortly after Episode I
    * When it came under attack from the "Far Outsiders" (an extragalactic invasion force that couldn't be sensed in the Force with strange biotechnology) she left with them to learn their ways and buy the galaxy some time
    * Lumiya and the One Sith also claim that she was a secret apprentice under Sidious, but tried to kill him, and took the Zonama Sekot assignment to get as far away from Sidious as possible

    * Vergere, as a servant of the Yuuzhan Vong, returns to the galaxy
    * She briefly runs into both Krayt and Lumiya, separately, and convinces these two darksiders that she is also a darksider
    * She heals a sick Mara, who is pregnant of Ben
    * Jacen Solo is captured and stripped of the Force, left for dead, and he trains under Vergere (who is lying to Nom Anor, pretending to be converting Jacen Solo to the Yuuzhan Vong's ways)... her messages include: choose and act, don't be a slave to your pain, your actions matter more than your intentions, don't make excuses for your actions but take responsibility for them, meet the universe with love, fanaticism is self-defeating, etc.
    * They both flee the Yuuzhan Vong, after allying with the World Brain on Coruscant

    * Vergere and Jacen return to New Republic space, to Dac, where Jacen is evaluated and Vergere is interrogated by Luke
    * Luke and Vergere have some very interesting conversations about the nature of the Force and the role of the Jedi, she warns him against allowing Jedi to have attachments and the threat of Jedi dynasties, among many other things
    * When Luke and Mara hear of Alpha Red, they hesitate to act... but Vergere acts, sabotaging and delaying Alpha Red, and stowing away with Jacen
    * Vergere warns Jacen against going to Ebaq 9 to save his sister, afraid that he may also die
    * Jacen goes anyways, and would have died, but Vergere flies a starfighter into the planet to save him and his sister
    * Vergere appears as a Force Ghost to Jacen, immediately after dying, and then (apparently) is never seen again

    So, what is Vergere?

  2. Todd the Jedi Jedi Grand Master

    I said other. But I do feel she fully intended Jacen to be a Jedi.
  3. Kais Jai Sheelal Jedi Grand Master

    A chicken with a pain fetish:p
  4. Katana Geldar Jedi Master

    Did someone bring the Matt-Signal from the other boards?

    Matt-Man! We want you!
  5. Teegirl00 Jedi Grand Master

    I thought of her as having a grey approach to the force. So i put other.
  6. The Forgotten Jedi Jedi Master

    This is just one of many quotes from Destiny's Way I could use. Vergere may have been unorthodox, but she was a Jedi.
    mulberry and Ghost like this.
  7. Dark Lady Mara Jedi Master

    That dialogue may exist, but everything she tells you is a lie. ;)
  8. The Forgotten Jedi Jedi Master

    True, but could she lie to Luke point blank like that? Lies of omission yes, but she is pledging her alligience to everything the Old Republic and the Jedi Code stood for.
  9. Kais Jai Sheelal Jedi Grand Master

    Several Old Republic Jedi out lived her.
  10. JackG Jedi Grand Master

    Vergere is such a wonderful because her true allegiance and intentions to this day are still ambivalent. It's nice to have a character which is black or white. I think she is just a pragmatic Jedi, a discoverer of Sidious? Maybe. But I think she deceived the One Sith and Lumiya as much as she manipulated Jacen Solo. What she intended for Jacen I don't know and don't ever want to.

    Nice thread idea Ghost! :) I might get around to reading Traitor one of these days (blasphemous that i haven't, i know)
    Ghost likes this.
  11. Gorefiend Jedi Grand Master

    Aren’t all Sith (the cult not the race) just kind of "mislead" Jedi anyway? [face_plain]
  12. Ghost Jedi Grand Master

    I agree that she was very unorthodox, and was sometimes very close to gray, but Vergere was still a Jedi at heart. Destiny's Way makes that clear, not only by her words (which The Forgotten Jedi posted) but also by her deeds.

    She was definitely not a Sith, though. How many Sith do we know of that warn against attachment and dynasties, sacrifice their life to save others, and become a Force Ghost?? She may have convinced Lumiya and Krayt that she was one of them, so they would actually listen to her, but she clearly gave up on those two by the time she begins teaching Jacen. Her teachings inspire Jacen to meet the universe with love, and later in TUF Jacen learns how to surrender control and become one with the Force as a result of his unique experiences with and insight from Vergere. It's only later that he falls to the dark side, very much ignoring Vergere's teachings, like how your intentions don't matter only your actions (nearly opposite of the "ends justify the means" philosophy that Jacen later adopts).

    Lumiya and the One Sith's story of her training under Sidious, learning who he is and what his plans are, trying to killing him, and fleeing to Zonama Sekot just doesn't make sense. I guess Vergere could be retconned into the plan that Plagueis and Sidious had, but it just doesn't fit with what we know about their plans, and the plans they had for Maul and Dooku. But even disregarding that, are we really supposed to believe that Sidious would reveal himself to a newly-minted Jedi Knight, what purpose would he have for her when he already had Dooku and an eye on Anakin? And even if he did, why would Vergere try to kill him, but tell nothing to the Jedi Council? And does Sidious really seem to be the kind of person that wouldn't have planned for a betrayal by Vergere? If she had tried to kill him, how could she have ever escaped Coruscant alive? And I don't see the Jedi Council making postings of missions: "which Jedi wants to sign up and leave immediately to go to a planet called Zonama Sekot at the edge of the galaxy? volunteer now!" We have never seen the Jedi work that way. And for Vergere to escape a Sidious who wants to kill her, she would have to leave immediately... I highly doubt that Vergere would be waiting in the Temple, not telling anybody about Palpatine's real identity, and just happen to be assigned to some planet as far away from Coruscant as you can get. Vergere also hardly even mentions Palpatine in all her time with Jacen, if he was an influence on her you would think it would have shown more. None of it makes any sense.
    The Forgotten Jedi likes this.
  13. Ulicus Jedi Grand Master

    In the NJO? Jedi. The language differs, the message is the same.

    In everything else? I don't even care.
    Dark Lady Mara likes this.
  14. dp4m Jedi Grand Master

    In NJO? Sith.
    In everything after NJO? Sith.
  15. The Forgotten Jedi Jedi Master

    I'm not sure why that would matter. As far as she knew, she was the last living Old Republic Jedi.

    I don't think she ever met Krayt or Lumiya. That was just misinformation the One Sith were feeding the Jedi to discredit Vergere, even if it was a hundred years after her death. What's that you say? That doesn't make sense? La la la can't hear you...

    But seriously, that is my one major problem with Legacy, since it makes it damn near impossible to pin Vergere as anything else but a Sith if she knew about Krayt. I'll just believe that the Sith feared her that much that they would attempt to discredit her even long after her death.
  16. Daft-Vader-Prototype Winner - Apples to Apples

    She should still be a Jedi, yes after living with the Yuuzhan Zong for so long, she has... picked up a few bad habits

    but she shouldn;t be a Sith

    I thinbk Lumiya's words about Vergere being a Sith were more a reason to get Jacen to trust her

    don't forget, "lies, deceit, creating mistrust" are the ways of the Sith... lying to get a young Jedi to fall into her hands...
  17. RebelJoseWales Jedi Master

    She's a something else-revealed-to-be a Jedi retconned-into-a Sith, of course. [face_plain]
  18. Sith Star Slayer LACWAC Mod of Peace, Justice & War

    Shame she never met Talzin.
  19. Daft-Vader-Prototype Winner - Apples to Apples

    Who knows... TCW will probably make it happen...
    Sith Star Slayer likes this.
  20. True_Zandalorian Jedi Grand Master

    I prefer the something else, with her allegiance being a technicality, much like Kreia was technically a Sith when in reality she was something else.

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