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Topic:
Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/19 7:29pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Oh yeah, Missouri loves to be thought of as unimportant. And it's not like Missouri has been a good state for 24 of the last 25 people who won it in the general Presidential election 
-sj loves kevin spacey
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
2/19 7:30pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
- Date Edited:
2/19 7:31pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
KnightWriter
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It's isn't really even necessary to spin her words. Instead, just look at this:
“Both Senator Obama and I would make history,” the former first lady said. “But only one of us is ready on day one to be commander in chief, ready to manage our economy, and ready to defeat the Republicans. Only one of us has spent 35 years being a doer, a fighter and a champion for those who need a voice.”
Defeat the Republicans? How would that mark any change from years of divisive politics that have allowed an increasing number of important issues to go untackled and unsolved? It's just trading the hunter and the hunted, nothing more. She's still stuck in the box, and it seems beyond her to realize that part of Obama's appeal is not just thinking outside the box, but perhaps convincing voters that it's best to ignore the box entirely and just deal with the contents inside of it.
Her job as president would not be to defeat any party or person. It would be to lead the country, and she seems increasingly unable to do that. Much of her experience is vicarious, however insightful it may have been, and she's no more experienced, in truth, than Obama.
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Darth_Guy
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
2/19 7:33pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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I really think you're reading too much into that. You don't think Obama would be delighted to bury his Republican opponent?
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/19 7:34pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Oh come on, Josh, clearly the most important job of the President is waging war on people in their country who disagree with them.
-sj loves kevin spacey
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
2/19 7:35pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
- Date Edited:
2/19 7:36pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
KnightWriter
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Darth_Guy posted:
I really think you're reading too much into that. You don't think Obama would be delighted to bury his Republican opponent?
Yes, but I think he looks at it more as a byproduct, rather than the actual goal. If the Republican agenda and party falls by the wayside, so be it. But I don't think that's going to be his stated goal.
Oh come on, Josh, clearly the most important job of the President is waging war on people in their country who disagree with them.
How quickly I forget.
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Jabba-wocky
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
2/19 7:37pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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SLR, that's nothing. Her surrogates are calling states like Missouri "second class delegates."
But yeah, the thing that's really amazing me is the destructive power of the Clintons. They went from people I liked to people I pretty deeply despise in mere weeks. Literally, less than a month.
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ays Darius the king: 8 of my family (there were) who were formerly kings; I am the ninth (9); long aforetime we are kings.
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
2/19 7:39pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
- Date Edited:
2/19 7:41pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
KnightWriter
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Jabba-wocky posted:
SLR, that's nothing. Her surrogates are calling states like Missouri "second class delegates."
But yeah, the thing that's really amazing me is the destructive power of the Clintons. They went from people I liked to people I pretty deeply despise in mere weeks. Literally, less than a month.
It's more than a little tragic. Bill especially is throwing his legacy away, or at least severely staining (ha) it. He rebuilt his reputation and once again stood as a well thought of statesman. Now he's not much more than an articulate attack dog, at least for the moment. Underlying it all for him, I suspect, is the knowledge that what he's doing is bad for the party and the country. I think it may well be beyond Hillary Clinton to realize it, but not for BIll.
But maybe I give him too much credit.
Looks like about 50% in, and it's 56-43 Obama.
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DarthLassic007
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
2/19 7:41pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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I don't know why people like Obama. He talks a good talk but if you listen carefully, there is really no substance to his speeches. At least Edwards admitted that he would raise taxes to have national health care. But Obama never says how he's going to fulfill all of his promises.
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SLR
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
2/19 7:41pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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No doubt J_W. With ostracising the African Americans in SC and now ostracising swing voters in important battleground states, how will Hillary have any electability in the fall?
I think the big shots in the Democratic party: Al Gore and Jimmy Carter need to come out and endorse Obama and urge Hillary to end this nonesense.
Personally, I don't think it will even matter. I think Obama will win either Texas or Ohio or both, along with Vermont on Mar. 4 and finally end Clinton's campaign.
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/19 7:52pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Jabba-wocky posted:
SLR, that's nothing. Her surrogates are calling states like Missouri "second class delegates."
Geez, it's unspoken most of the time but usually in elections people pay attention to us for a little while, before we go back to being a "flyover state". But seriously, that's a ridiculous and hypocritical thing to say from these people who claim to be for the unrecognized 
DarthLassic007 posted:
I don't know why people like Obama. He talks a good talk but if you listen carefully, there is really no substance to his speeches. At least Edwards admitted that he would raise taxes to have national health care. But Obama never says how he's going to fulfill all of his promises.
I think there's some truth to this statement. I'm not sure he really has detailed plans, which is why I wouldn't vote for him in the general election. He needs more experience. Not to sap his ideas, but rather to give them some practical solutions and ideas, IMHO.
To be fair, though, he has said a few specific things. A couple he's mentioned before (subsidizing college but demanding that students do community service in return), and some that are new in their specifics (using money now spent on the Iraq war to pay for things like healthcare instead).
Of course, the money we're spending in Iraq is being borrowed and taken from Social Security, not really from taxes. So I wonder if that would really help, since we wouldn't want to maintain debt... my bigger problem is with the fact that I don't think it's quite time to pull out of Iraq yet, in fact I think it would be disastrous.
But I'd still take him over Hillary any day of the week and twice on Sunday. At least he actually believes in something and has good aims of getting the country united and involved. But I still don't agree with his policies and do see that he's a little thin on application. Like I said, give him some time to work out specific, practical application of some of his good ideas and then get back to me
-sj loves kevin spacey
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
2/19 7:52pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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DarthLassic007 posted:
I don't know why people like Obama. He talks a good talk but if you listen carefully, there is really no substance to his speeches. At least Edwards admitted that he would raise taxes to have national health care. But Obama never says how he's going to fulfill all of his promises.
Mr Obama is a political phenomenon. Both Mr McCain and Ms Clinton are echoes of the past and although they're a little unorthodox, they're still cut from a cookie cutter politician mold. Obama is not.
He (Mr Obama) has promoted optimism on a global level, survived a withering onslaught from the Clintons (who have far more experience at this sort of thing) by not sinking to that level, and he has refused to let his race be either a crutch or an ace up his sleeve.
Optimism, whilst a powerful sensation, isn't always realistic and the real test may be yet to come. However, that wasn't what you were asking Lassic; you asked why people like Mr Obama. I think I've given you some reasons.
ES
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SLR
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
2/19 8:00pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
- Date Edited:
2/19 8:00pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SLR
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MSNBC was just hammering an Obama supporter regarding Obama's legislative accomplishments in the Senate. But no one asked the same question to Hillary's Ohio supporter. I don't get this. What significant legislation has Hillary been responsible for enacting in her stint in the Senate? What legislation did she draft or sponsor? It seems to me that both Clinton and Obama have both been rather unremarkable senators.
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Darth_wanderguard
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
2/19 8:00pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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I'm actually an Obama supporter, but I'll be the first to admit that when it comes down to the issues, sometimes he's lacking in substance. Clinton seems to have her platform a little more figured out. I think if Barack doesn't win this time around, he'll be a sure front runner for 2012. With some more experience, and some more time to really get himself together I think he could make an excellent president.
I think the big contrast between Clinton and Obama is substance vs. rhetoric. Obama has a great overall message, while Clinton has well thought out positions on the specific issues.
It just so happens that this time around, Obama thrills me more than Clinton.
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man., who jus noticed his own title. You jerk
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
2/19 8:01pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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DarthLassic007 posted:
I don't know why people like Obama. He talks a good talk but if you listen carefully, there is really no substance to his speeches. At least Edwards admitted that he would raise taxes to have national health care. But Obama never says how he's going to fulfill all of his promises.
Perhaps the problem is that you're relying on his speeches for that kind of information, instead of the places that he actually displays that information, like his website, etc.
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Jabba-wocky
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
2/19 8:01pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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DarthLassic007 posted:
I don't know why people like Obama. He talks a good talk but if you listen carefully, there is really no substance to his speeches. At least Edwards admitted that he would raise taxes to have national health care. But Obama never says how he's going to fulfill all of his promises.
A number of things.
First, your claim about Edwards is deeply misleading. When he said he would raise taxes, he meant he would repeal the Bush tax cuts--which is something every Democrat, and even John McCain (until maybe 2 weeks ago) said he was going to do. So that doesn't represent "details." Secondly, on many issue, he's been more forthcoming than Clinton--as when he said that he would probably raise the cap on the Social Security tax, while Clinton refused to say this publicly. More importantly, he doesn't use a lot of his stump speech for policy, but he certainly has policy proposals that are as detailed as any Democrat that ran this year.
Your claim is one a lot people like to make, but substantively, it's just wrong.
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ays Darius the king: 8 of my family (there were) who were formerly kings; I am the ninth (9); long aforetime we are kings.
All Hail His Excellency, Barack Obama
Roma vincit
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