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Topic:
Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 8:29am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
- Date Edited:
5/13 8:37am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Souderwan
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You'd never know it reading this thread, but by a more than 2-1 margin, Democrats think Senator Clinton should stay in the race. Fascinating.
Edit: Holy crap that was the wrong link!  Here's a more recent one. ABC was still reporting the same thing on TV today.
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Emperor_Billy_Bob
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:09am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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I love that people are throwing around the word "terrorist" to describe a bunch of middle aged white guys who live in an affluent neighborhood in Chicago.
The Weather Underground was the most militant faction of the Student Anti-war movement in the 60s. They were naive kids.
Were they terrorists? Yes. Were they TERRORISTS (say in deep booming voice) No, not really. But hey, throw around the word terrorist enough in this Post 9/11 world and that has to be significant.
I'm not troubled by Obama's association with these guys. They are, for all their radical craziness in the 60's, extremely intelligent people, fixtures of Chicago's intellectual scene, and I'd be more suprised if Obama hadn't encountered them.
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DarthLassic007
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:26am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Emperor_Billy_Bob posted:
They were naive kids.
Yea just like average kids who cut class to go drink beer in the woods. That's all.
Ayers is not a "naive" kid anymore. He's still glad he did it and wishes that he did more.
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Emperor_Billy_Bob
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:28am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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DarthLassic007 posted:
Emperor_Billy_Bob posted:
They were naive kids.
Yea just like average kids who cut class to go drink beer in the woods. That's all.
Ayers is not a "naive" kid anymore. He's still glad he did it and wishes that he did more.
History has proven him right. You can't fault the guy too much.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:41am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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It's one thing to defend Obama's relationship with Ayers, David. It's quite another to play off this man as anything but an extremist. What he did was wrong and his admitted lack of remorse on the subject makes the man worthy of disdain, not praise.
And appealing to history hardly makes it any better by any stretch of the imagination.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Emperor_Billy_Bob
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:45am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
- Date Edited:
5/13 9:47am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Emperor_Billy_Bob
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He was an extremist. He used tactics I don't and would not ever condone. The Weather Undergrounds' use of violence was unacceptable, and would be today or at any conceivable point in the future.
However, members of the US armed forces in that war committed atrocities that make everything the Weathermen ever did look like Child's Play.
His CAUSE was right, regardless of how he/they prosecuted it. It was their methods that were wrong.
When he says he is unrepentant, that is what I look at. I hardly think association with some pudgy Chicago law professor who used to be a terrorist means anything in terms of what Obama stands for, except that he was exposed to very far leftist views.
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ApolloSmileGirl
Registered:
Jun '04
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:49am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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When exactly did Ayers join the race for president?
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Emperor_Billy_Bob
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:51am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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ApolloSmileGirl posted:
When exactly did Ayers join the race for president?
Apparently some point twenty years ago when he hung out with Barack.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:56am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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As I've said time and time again, I don't care about Obama and his associations. Other people do. Like it or not, that's a political reality.
Anyway, on his CAUSE, I can only say that the way to hell is paved with good intentions. What he did was wrong, no matter what cause he was supporting. Every terrorist thinks his cause is just--sometimes history proves them right, sometimes not. But destroying property and killing innocent people--intentionally or not--is wrong in any context.
I feel that way about the Sam Sharpe rebellion so I certainly feel that way about Ayers and his ilk--and Sam Sharpe's cause was a lot more clear-cut, in my mind, than Ayers'.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Emperor_Billy_Bob
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:01am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Souderwan posted:
What he did was wrong, no matter what cause he was supporting.
Every terrorist thinks his cause is just--sometimes history proves them right, sometimes not. But destroying property and killing innocent people--intentionally or not--is wrong in any context.
Violence in ANY case is wrong, for ANY cause?
Terrorism is wrong in ANY case, for ANY cause?
Surely you don't mean that. Thats a rather extreme and short sighted view to take.
Violence has to be justified in some cases or society itself cannot function.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:05am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Emperor_Billy_Bob posted:
Souderwan posted:
What he did was wrong, no matter what cause he was supporting.
Every terrorist thinks his cause is just--sometimes history proves them right, sometimes not. But destroying property and killing innocent people--intentionally or not--is wrong in any context.
Violence in ANY case is wrong, for ANY cause?
Terrorism is wrong in ANY case, for ANY cause?
Surely you don't mean that. Thats a rather extreme and short sighted view to take.
Violence has to be justified in some cases or society itself cannot function.
I don't think he said that. He said "killing innocent people and destroying property is wrong in any case." That is a bit different than saying all violence and terrorism is wrong.
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Emperor_Billy_Bob
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:06am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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No, I think it is clear what Souderwan SAID, I think he must have just been full of emotion when he was typing cause there is no way that that is what he MEANT.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:09am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Emperor_Billy_Bob posted:
Souderwan posted:
What he did was wrong, no matter what cause he was supporting.
Every terrorist thinks his cause is just--sometimes history proves them right, sometimes not. But destroying property and killing innocent people--intentionally or not--is wrong in any context.
Violence in ANY case is wrong, for ANY cause?
Terrorism is wrong in ANY case, for ANY cause?
Surely you don't mean that. Thats a rather extreme and short sighted view to take.
Violence has to be justified in some cases or society itself cannot function.
That's not what I meant and you know it. I am in the military. Obviously I'm not a pacifist. But rather than make broad sweeping statements like I did, I'll refocus on Ayers himself:
Thousands of people opposed the war and found peaceful ways to protest it. But that wasn't good enough for him. Instead, he and his group decided to target the US Government--not because they felt oppressed and were seeking to overthrow an oppressive regime and restore democracy, but only to do damage and create chaos. According to him, it was a form of protest.
Under that context, his actions were deplorable.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Emperor_Billy_Bob
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:14am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Souderwan posted:
Thousands of people opposed the war and found peaceful ways to protest it. But that wasn't good enough for him. Instead, he and his group decided to target the US Government--not because they felt oppressed and were seeking to overthrow an oppressive regime and restore democracy, but only to do damage and create chaos. According to him, it was a form of protest.
Under that context, his actions were deplorable.
I'd agree with you that his actions were wrong, and that the perception they had of the imminent world revolution was pretty dumb, and their attempt to co-opt the Black Panthers into their movement was silly, naive college kid stuff at its finest.
I think you are wrong in assuming that they didn't believe what they were "fighting" for. These were the sixties and all that. I don't think they were attempting to "do damage and cause Chaos", they were caught up in the times and really did believe that a Revolution was possible. Granted, my knowledge of the Weather Underground is limited to having watched a film documentary about it, but this was the time of the counterculture. Judging by their actions, I can only say that I think those kids were "true believers" so to speak.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:19am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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All I'm saying is that their actions were wrong, regardless of their motivations. I'm not here to support McCain or defend Obama. This is all an academic discussion. What irks me is this two-pronged approach of "Ayers shouldn't matter because Obama isn't Ayers" (agree with) followed up with "Ayers really isn't that extreme".
Regardless of his intentions at the time, Ayers, with years and years to think it over, said as recently as 2001 that he regrets nothing and wish he had done more--even though he ultimately got what he wanted! That guy is someone I want absolutely nothing to do with. Nothing is going to change my opinion on that count.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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