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Topic:
Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
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Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:23pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Andalite-Bandit posted:
I would say they were misguided, but to me destruction of government property is not necessarily some sort of evil act.
By calling it government property, you're removing it from our own concerns. But it's public property. It's OURs.
Any time they destroy public property, we end up paying for it.
As for the whole revolutionary thing--that's nothing new. We tried to arrest revolutionary tendancies as soon as it was over, and re-accustom the population to law and order. That's why things like Shay's Rebellion and the Whisky Revolt were all put down.
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Roma Æterna|SPQR  Imperium Sine Fine "Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque" -Ennius, Annales "Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento;hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos" -Virgil, Aeneid
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DarthLassic007
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:31pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
- Date Edited:
5/13 1:32pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthLassic007
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Andalite-Bandit posted:
The South isn't heroic because they wanted to maintain slavery, which is pretty evil by definition. However, you still see people like Robert E Lee getting a lot of respect, even though he was on the wrong side.
Robert E. Lee might get respect for his military strategy, not for his beliefs or views. Same goes for Erwin Rommel in WWII. But Ayers should get no respect for his actions.
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Jabba-wocky
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:47pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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DarthLassic007 posted:
Robert E. Lee might get respect for his military strategy, not for his beliefs or views. Same goes for Erwin Rommel in WWII. But Ayers should get no respect for his actions.
I don't think anyone is saying he should "get respect." I think they're saying it's not a big deal that Obama visited his house one time and then they were both members of the same charitable organization for three years or so.
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Penitent & Unforgiven  Sorry JediAngela The Yankees are awesome.
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:54pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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FYI: on the terrorism front, until September 11th the ELF was the #1 most wanted terrorist group in the US due to sheer amount of damage and lives lost.
Hardly "right wing"...
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:05pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Jabba-wocky posted:
DarthLassic007 posted:
Robert E. Lee might get respect for his military strategy, not for his beliefs or views. Same goes for Erwin Rommel in WWII. But Ayers should get no respect for his actions.
I don't think anyone is saying he should "get respect." I think they're saying it's not a big deal that Obama visited his house one time and then they were both members of the same charitable organization for three years or so.
I agree that no one is saying that he should "get respect", but I disagree with the rest. The thrust of the conversation over the last two pages or so has been to minimize Ayers' actions by trying to contextualize it by saying they were "crazy times" and "well he didn't kill anybody" (though his organization did--intentionally or otherwise) and "it was just against the government", etc. At best, Ayers committed criminal acts and escaped punishment for it--not only did he escape punishment, but he's gone on to become a tenured professor and a respected member of the community, all without showing even the slightest hint of remorse. At worst, he declared war on his own country and carried out attacks accordingly.
There's a name for that.
Of course, one man's traitor is another man's freedom fighter. Just don't get all upset when people see the man differently than you do. (That's a global "you", Jabba, not specifically you in particular).
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Jabba-wocky
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:21pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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I guess I don't see it that way, Souderwan. As I read the thread, about two or three things happened:
1. People dismissed the significance of the Ayers issue in regards to Obama's candidacy
2. People made the point that while Ayers was a terrorist, not all terrorists are equally bad/troubling, just as all war crimes are not equally severe (eg Iranians showing footage of captured British sailors playing ping-pong is a bit better than what went on at the Hanoi Hilton; ETA--another groups that generally targets property and gives advance warnings on attacks--is less of a concern than Al-Qaeda). They then went on to make a further point that Ayers clearly falls on the milder end of the spectrum.
3. A bunch of crazy, labyrinthine hypothetical questions about abortion bombings and Confederate revivalist terrorist groups, the value of which I'm not really clear about
4. Point 2 was restated
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Penitent & Unforgiven Sorry JediAngela The Yankees are awesome.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:27pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Apparently Obama is good at pool
Starts about 50 seconds in.
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Lord Sithis, Dark Lord of Entropy  Senator of the Disciples of Lady Lumiya and Lord Shadowspawn Sith Governor of the Imperial Knights! Resistance is futile! Sinrebirth for Sith Emperor '08  Iron Gauntlet of the Sith
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:32pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Jabba, I'm going to say this as kindly as I can. You see what you want to see. I'm really getting weary of the JCC of late.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Jabba-wocky
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:34pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Sure, I agree with you that this is a stupid discussion. That's why I've said next to nothing about it. But I think it's unfair of you to harp on one side of a two-part discussion that was, in fact, brought up by Lassic.
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Penitent & Unforgiven Sorry JediAngela The Yankees are awesome.
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Andalite-Bandit
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:35pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
- Date Edited:
5/13 2:36pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Andalite-Bandit
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I don't know that the discussion is stupid, it's more that it just has almost nothing to do with the actual topic of the thread. If there were an alternate universe where this discussion happened in its own thread I'd think it would be a decent to interesting discussion!
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"In a nation run by swine, all pigs are upward-mobile and the rest of us are fraked until we can put our acts together: Not necessarily to Win, but mainly to keep from Losing Completely. " - Hunter S Thompson
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:35pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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It's a really simple decision tree:
Did Ayers engage in terrorist activity? YES / NO
If yes, then he is a terrorist.
If no, then he is not a terrorist.
I agree on principle that there are degrees in there, but that's pretty much only the difference between, say, "The Gentleman Hijacker" (completely non-violent, non-property destruction, political terrorism) vs. anyone that causes loss of life, loss of liberty, property damage, etc.
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"On another note, 'diplomacy' is one of the most versatile words in the player character arsenal. It covers pretty much any conceivable action in any imaginable scenario." - Darths & Droids
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:38pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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The word "terrorism" has no significant meaning anymore. It has simply become a name that governments use on groups that they do not like.
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Lord Sithis, Dark Lord of Entropy Senator of the Disciples of Lady Lumiya and Lord Shadowspawn Sith Governor of the Imperial Knights! Resistance is futile! Sinrebirth for Sith Emperor '08 Iron Gauntlet of the Sith
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:41pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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Jabba-wocky posted:
Sure, I agree with you that this is a stupid discussion. That's why I've said next to nothing about it. But I think it's unfair of you to harp on one side of a two-part discussion that was, in fact, brought up by Lassic.
Again. You're seeing what you want to see. Look at my posts and where I stepped into this discussion. I began by saying that Ayers' relationship with Obama doesn't mean **** to me. I specifically was addressing posts that tried to suggest that Ayers is basically not so bad. Every post from me dovetailed from that. I haven't "harped" on any side. Lassic thinks Obama's relationship with Ayers matters. I do not. What more needs to be said on that point?
Like dp4m said, Ayers is a terrorist. Maybe we don't like the connotation of the word. Fine. He's a criminal. An unrepentant criminal at that. An unrepentant criminal who is a university professor. I'm not about to say "he's not so bad."
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:49pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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There was some of that in this debate. But Obama was asked about his association with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, his remarks about wearing an American flag lapel pin, his comment that "bitter" small town Pennsylvanians "cling to guns and religion" and his "friendly" relations -- "friendly" is his campaign adviser David Axelrod's word -- with William Ayers.
Seeing that Ayers is a professor at the same university (a fairly prestigious one at that) Obama worked at, sat on the board of a large community charitable organization, and had ties with Chicago's mayor, you can't call few contacts between Obama and Ayers being friends.
Just because you are friendly with someone doesn't mean you are friends.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:55pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
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In equally pointless news, Hagee has apologized for his anti-Catholic remarks and the Catholic League has accepted.
Predictably:
DNC rep posted:
"Now that Reverend Hagee is apologizing for his anti-Catholic comments, does John McCain think that Hagee should also apologize for his other comments? If so will he have the courage to say so publicly?" asked DNC spokeswoman Karen Finney "Unless John McCain's idea of being a new kind of Republican includes cozying up to radicals who compare women to dogs, hold racially insensitive fundraisers and call one of the worst natural disasters in our country's history God's punishment, he should renounce John Hagee's endorsement immediately. Given John McCain's history of putting political calculations ahead of his principles, we're not holding our breath."
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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