| Author |
Topic:
Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
GrandAdmiralStrife
Title: FanForce CR
Austin, TX
Registered:
Jun '01
|
Date Posted:
5/16 7:37pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
|
because, like any other tax on business, the cosrt gets handed down to the consumer in the form of higher prices to maintain their profit margin.
-----signature-----
http://www.myspace.com/austinfanforce Chancellor of the Austin Fan Force  I am starting to hear voices... they come in the dark solitude of a gameless night... like little frogs laughing at my neglect. Freakin' frogs are ticking me off.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
|
Date Posted:
5/16 7:57pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
|
The folks at your forum are right, VLM. I can't figure out how any sane person thinks taxing Oil Companies will lower gas prices in any way. No one's dumb enough to believe that, right? Right?
-----signature-----
"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
|
Date Posted:
5/16 8:05pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
Souderwan posted:
I can't figure out how any sane person thinks taxing Oil Companies will lower gas prices in any way.
Prices don't need to be lowered. They need to keep going up as an impetus to shift and ultimately change how we handle energy/transportation in this country.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
VadersLaMent
Registered:
Apr '02
|
Date Posted:
5/16 8:07pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
|
Fair Tax. Did you know a bill for it is just sitting there to be left to die? Too bad the only person who wanted to impliment it was the kook Huckabee.
-----signature-----
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic--Arthur C. Clarke
Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God--Michael Shermer
I am a sexy, shoeless GOD OF WAR!
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
|
Date Posted:
5/16 8:25pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
Souderwan posted:
I can't figure out how any sane person thinks taxing Oil Companies will lower gas prices in any way.
Prices don't need to be lowered. They need to keep going up as an impetus to shift and ultimately change how we handle energy/transportation in this country.
Tell that the millions of people who are going to starve across the globe over the next few years because of the combination of the price of fuel and shift to biofuels driving food prices beyond their ability to pay on their $1/day lifestyles.
-----signature-----
"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
|
Date Posted:
5/16 8:31pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
|
On another topic: Obama made me lol.
-----signature-----
"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
|
Date Posted:
5/16 8:34pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
|
Food can and should be subsidized. But it seems the only way to get the average American to are about improving the fuel situation is for the problem to affect them directly. I'd much rather we start moving towards alternatives now, when we still have oil left to fall back on than down the line when we run out.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
|
Date Posted:
5/16 8:40pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
You're thinking about America. I'm thinking about the kid in Sudan who won't go to school because it's either go to school or eat. But yeah...I can see that this discussion's gonna end up in the AGW argument that I'm definitely not gonna get into, 'cause it's dumb to bother. So I'll just stop here.
Side note: Food subsidies don't mean a damn thing if you can't afford to transport the food or if you're using the land to make biofuels.
-----signature-----
"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Ed_Abbey
Registered:
Jan '08
|
Date Posted:
5/16 9:08pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
Souderwan posted:
On another topic: Obama made me lol.
I like how in the description on that video it says Obama is "disenfranchising" Michiganders. Like Obama makes the Democratic Party rules and/or forced the Michigan DNC to break them. 
-----signature-----
To have her please just one day wake...
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
DarthLassic007
Registered:
Nov '02
|
Date Posted:
5/17 12:30am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
- Date Edited:
5/17 12:32am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthLassic007
|
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
Souderwan posted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't figure out how any sane person thinks taxing Oil Companies will lower gas prices in any way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prices don't need to be lowered. They need to keep going up as an impetus to shift and ultimately change how we handle energy/transportation in this country.
Spoken like a true liberal. 
I guess Bill Clinton didn't raise the gas tax enough.
If you want alternative fuel then you should want the tax on oil companies lowered.
-----signature-----
Veni, Vidi, Vici. - Julius Caesar
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Emperor_Billy_Bob
Registered:
Aug '00
|
Date Posted:
5/17 2:08am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
Souderwan posted:
You're thinking about America. I'm thinking about the kid in Sudan who won't go to school because it's either go to school or eat. But yeah...I can see that this discussion's gonna end up in the AGW argument that I'm definitely not gonna get into, 'cause it's dumb to bother. So I'll just stop here.
A sad truth of history is that steps forward require times of hardship.
-----signature-----
"I'd hit it." - Lord Vivec in regards to Adolf Hitler
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
|
Date Posted:
5/17 11:47am
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
DarthLassic007 posted:
If you want alternative fuel then you should want the tax on oil companies lowered.
Uhh..I don't see how that works.
As we've discussed in my engineering classes, the oil companies will not change unless they are forced to. Scientists and Engineers can develop all sorts of new technologies that will NEVER be implemented because the oil companies want profits.
-----signature-----
EUS Vice Chancellor
"I believe the proper analogy involves a river of excrement and a Native American vessel without any means of propulsion." -Sheldon
Gavin Newsom for CA Gov '10!
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jabba-wocky
Registered:
May '03
|
Date Posted:
5/17 1:34pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
|
Souderwan posted:
You're thinking about America. I'm thinking about the kid in Sudan who won't go to school because it's either go to school or eat. But yeah...I can see that this discussion's gonna end up in the AGW argument that I'm definitely not gonna get into, 'cause it's dumb to bother. So I'll just stop here.
Side note: Food subsidies don't mean a damn thing if you can't afford to transport the food or if you're using the land to make biofuels.
Souderwan, I guess I'm confused here. Oil and food prices aren't necessarily linked and haven't been for the majority of history. While, yes, the Haber process (which uses natural gas) is used to make a good deal of fertilizer used in commercial farming, much of the spike in global grain prices comes from farmers growing to produce biofuels rather than produce staple crops. The lowered supply in the face of inelastic demand has pushed prices up. Or at least, that's my understanding of the roughest outlines of the economics of the problem.
Regardless, though, my general point is that given the fault lies with biofuels, our use of oil is really neither here nor there, since there are other alternative energy strategies that could be pursued that wouldn't cause such problems (ex nuclear).
-----signature-----
ays Darius the king: 8 of my family (there were) who were formerly kings; I am the ninth (9); long aforetime we are kings.
All Hail His Excellency, Barack Obama
Roma vincit
Tearing Up a Lane (TERRIN UP A LAAAANE!!!)
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
|
Date Posted:
5/17 2:07pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
- Date Edited:
5/17 2:13pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Souderwan
|
Jabba-wocky posted:
Souderwan, I guess I'm confused here. Oil and food prices aren't necessarily linked and haven't been for the majority of history. While, yes, the Haber process (which uses natural gas) is used to make a good deal of fertilizer used in commercial farming, much of the spike in global grain prices comes from farmers growing to produce biofuels rather than produce staple crops. The lowered supply in the face of inelastic demand has pushed prices up. Or at least, that's my understanding of the roughest outlines of the economics of the problem.
You're partly right, but you're simplifying a complex system.
1. Oil prices affect everything because it is through oil that we move the tools of production and the products themselves. The upward inflationary pressures that we're seeing are across the board and it has everything to do with transportation costs. Farming is particularly effected. Beyond the simple effects of having to move everything from farming materials to feed and fertilizers (all of which costs fuel), the actual farming process from the planting of crops to fertilization and reaping all requires the use of machinery that burns significant amounts of fuel.
Bottom line: The cost of production of food is directly proportional to oil prices.
2. As you rightly pointed out, biofuel production--in the US, about 30% of corn is used for ethanol, for example, which has a cascading effect as corn is used for feed in most livestock farms as well as being a component of thousands of food products that we take for granted every day--is driving the costs up significantly. Additional factors are increased global demand for grain (a commodity) as countries like China and India become more wealthy and can afford to buy more from the world market than they were before. Less food. More demand. The result is a massive upward pressure on food prices.
So now you have this maelstrom developing. Simply purchasing food is more expensive by more than 40% over last year. In 2006, the trend across the globe was, on average, that abject poverty (living on less than $1/day PPP) was on the downward trend. Now, that $1/day buys less. For people (well over 2 billion of them) hovering near that $1/day marker, their choices have dropped dramatically as they can no longer afford even to eat.
Now we return to how oil prices are effecting all that. Transportation costs. It costs more just to ship already expensive food to semi-remote regions of the world. Even food aid organizations such as the UN food program can't afford to do this without a massive influx of money (The UN estimated recently that they needed an additional $700 million just to supply the same amount of food aid that they did last year).
So while we talk about alternative fuels as the solution and we're doing nothing as a planet to resolve the fuel problem, people will starve in vast numbers. The need for energy is not going to go away. We can invest to our heart's content in alternative fuels all day long, but it won't lower the price of oil for a very long time because the entire infrastructure of the planet is built around the burning of fossil fuels for energy. The only solution to the cost of oil is to increase the supply. Period.
But we won't increase the supply. We won't dig for more oil and we won't stop biofuel production. Why? Because we're hoping to avert a phantom catastrophe that, according to the worst-case estimates, is 20-50 yrs from happening. According to those same estimates, even stopping all fossil fuel production right now would only delay, not stop said catastrophe.
So while we in the Western World wring our collective hands over AGW, we're going to starve thousands if not millions of people to death. Climate change really is going to kill a lot of people. Just not in the way so many advocates have been predicting.
-----signature-----
"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jabba-wocky
Registered:
May '03
|
Date Posted:
5/17 2:19pm
Subject:
RE: Winter-Spring 2008: The Republican and Democratic Primaries and Caucuses thread.
- Date Edited:
5/17 2:26pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabba-wocky
|
To be fair, most major producers are already at or near peak production capacity, and doing things like drilling from ANWR don't really boost supply that much in the long run. I'd gladly concede that the search for "alternative fuels" has been badly mishandled, and many mistakes have been made in pushing for adjustment to climate change. However, as you yourself pointed out, many of the reasons for increasing food prices don't have to do with oil, even though many do. I feel like you're posing a false choice here. Oil is not possibly the only solution to high food prices, if for no other reason than because it's not the sole cause of the problem in the first place.
EDIT: To be clear, I'd agree with you analysis above, but am mystified by your conclusion. How does all of what you posted above equal "I'm thinking of starving children in Sudan" as if abandoning oil would necessarily mean a food crisis.
-----signature-----
ays Darius the king: 8 of my family (there were) who were formerly kings; I am the ninth (9); long aforetime we are kings.
All Hail His Excellency, Barack Obama
Roma vincit
Tearing Up a Lane (TERRIN UP A LAAAANE!!!)
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
