| Author |
Topic:
George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:35am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
- Date Edited:
5/14 8:39am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lord_Vivec
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Paladin307 posted:
Have you ever lived in a country where you were delegated to be second class citizens based on your ethnicity or religion? Thats how it was for my parents back in Iraq. That was before they came to America where my dad was offered the opportunity for a real education and the chance to make a fortune if he was willing to work for it which he did. This was despite the fact that his parents were illiterate farmers. This is relatively tame compared to some ppl's backgrounds...but I think its a pretty damn good reason to love a country.
Having lived in and traveled to such countries, I find it morally reprehensible to love my country when I believe everyone around the world is equal. Every country has its good and bad.
America isn't greater than every other country. The people here aren't better than those around the world. Other countries are good to. The people there are good people too.
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EUS Vice Chancellor
"I believe the proper analogy involves a river of excrement and a Native American vessel without any means of propulsion." -Sheldon
Gavin Newsom for CA Gov '10!
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Darth_Bumble
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:49am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Lord_Vivec posted:
Having lived in and traveled to such countries, I find it morally reprehensible to love my country when I believe everyone around the world is equal. Every country has its good and bad.
America isn't greater than every other country. The people here aren't better than those around the world. Other countries are good to. The people there are good people too.
You don't have to believe your country is superior to love it. And I would never presume that my country's citizens are somehow superior in any way to anyone else. In fact, one of my country's founding principles is that all people are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among those being life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I would die to preserve such principles, and would die to help those in other countries preserve or establish the same kind of freedom.
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"I don't believe in reincarnation because I refuse to come back as a bug or a rabbit."
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:51am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Darth_Bumble posted:
Lord_Vivec posted:
Having lived in and traveled to such countries, I find it morally reprehensible to love my country when I believe everyone around the world is equal. Every country has its good and bad.
America isn't greater than every other country. The people here aren't better than those around the world. Other countries are good to. The people there are good people too.
You don't have to believe your country is superior to love it. And I would never presume that my country's citizens are somehow superior in any way to anyone else. In fact, one of my country's founding principles is that all people are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among those being life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I would die to preserve such principles, and would die to help those in other countries preserve or establish the same kind of freedom.
The whole "God bless America," "My Country tis of thee!" etc say otherwise.
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EUS Vice Chancellor
"I believe the proper analogy involves a river of excrement and a Native American vessel without any means of propulsion." -Sheldon
Gavin Newsom for CA Gov '10!
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Darth_Bumble
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
5/14 9:02am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Lord_Vivec posted:
The whole "God bless America," "My Country tis of thee!" etc say otherwise.
What are you talking about? Those are sappy, patriotic songs, not founding principles. Besides, what lyrics say that America and its people are superior to all others? Even so, I would take that balance of America's history of selflessly shedding blood for freedom over some song.
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"...and the pain was enough to make a shy, bald Buddhist reflect and plan a mass murder..."
"I don't believe in reincarnation because I refuse to come back as a bug or a rabbit."
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AaylaSecurOWNED
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 9:04am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Souderwan posted:
Saying that I love my country but see her through and an honest lens says nothing about other people and how they see the country. I'm not sure how you drew that out of what I said.
Anyway, I'll clarify just in case: I was saying that there are people who love the country but are blind to the faults of the country. I don't think that's an honest lens. I wasn't even talking about the people who hate the country, in fact.
Um, yes I was being serious. Starting your post with the premise that "very few" of the people on the boards are fair to America, and then progressing to the point that you claim that you're one of that "few who love the country but see her through an honest lens" necessarily says something about how the rest of the JC sees the country. You can't claim yourself as being among some anointed elite who are able to love the country without relegating the rest of us to some lower echelon of either
1)hatred of America or
2)love of America but don't see her through an honest lens
and since I've never felt "put on the defensive" about my view of America, and I've never been called a "nationalist jerk," I'm not one of your anointed elite, so I'd like to know which one you think I am.
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MarcusP2
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/14 9:04am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Andalite-Bandit posted:
 
This is the new thing called the KOALA BEAR SAVE. When you think a thread is about to get exploded with argument you say koala bear and post some koala bear images, and then everyone is like "eeee koala bears look!!!" and calms down and becomes happy.
Koalas aren't bears you jerk.  Why don't you learn something about Australia?
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Spiderfan
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/14 9:16am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Souderwan posted:
Yeah. Well that means I get to glean what I want from it. 
Bottom line: There are very few users on this board, and even fewer non-Americans who I think are fair to America. The posts get more and more extreme every day--to the point that there are people here who genuinely think that we are worse than Al-Qaeda (cue posts quoting that bit for truth). That kind of constant anti-American barrage coming from all sides tends to push the few of us who overall love this country but see her through an honest lens into a defensive mode. Then we're called nationalistic jerks.
There is such an absolute lack of nuance around her of late that it's getting to the point that I just don't want to be here anymore.
Thats not an exclusive feeling to just the United States and its citizens here that love it, Brian.
I have no specific issue with the United States (though I do take issue with the actions of her government and words of some of her people). I would however like to see certain attitudes curbed around here...particularly ones that make the US seem to be the only relevant nation in the world and anything that is not in direct compliance with its ways is immediately offensive and wrong. I am not pointing fingers here, just saying that I find such attitudes offensive and disturbing.
But I really think that its unfair to claim that there are few non-Americans who are fair to it.
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"Yeah, well my god has a hammer." - Nick Fury  You look like you could use a hug: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/28325808/p1/?211 Pulsies4Mod '08
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 9:30am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Spiderfan posted:
Thats not an exclusive feeling to just the United States and its citizens here that love it, Brian.
I have no specific issue with the United States (though I do take issue with the actions of her government and words of some of her people). I would however like to see certain attitudes curbed around here...particularly ones that make the US seem to be the only relevant nation in the world and anything that is not in direct compliance with its ways is immediately offensive and wrong. I am not pointing fingers here, just saying that I find such attitudes offensive and disturbing.
But I really think that its unfair to claim that there are few non-Americans who are fair to it.
It might be unfair. I certainly didn't say all non-Americans. In fact, I think that there are quite a few people who are fair and many more who just don't bother to say anything at all who may or may not agree with what is said on a routine basis here. Rather than say more on the subject and risk being taken out of context again, I'll just leave it at that.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Darth_Bumble
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
5/14 9:31am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Spiderfan posted:
But I really think that its unfair to claim that there are few non-Americans who are fair to it.
I totally agree with this statement. In my world travels, I've encountered nothing but respect and admiration for the US and its people. I hope that I personally have been able to earn such respect.
Personal story: I was in Belguim on the day that the US invaded Iraq in March of 2003. My hosts were vehemently against the actions that the US was about to take, but they also deeply understood all the underlying bases (much more so than many anti-war people in the US, in my experience). We shared some contemplative moments of wishing and praying for the safety and success of the US troops and the Iraqi people.
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"...and the pain was enough to make a shy, bald Buddhist reflect and plan a mass murder..."
"I don't believe in reincarnation because I refuse to come back as a bug or a rabbit."
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Spiderfan
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/14 9:33am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Sorry dude, I am not trying to take it out of context. I just meant to address your comments from different perspective. Honestly I would like to see the negative attitudes towards other nations dissolve altogether and for people not to be judged because of where they are from. To me thats as absurd and offensive as people judging based on skin colour or sex etc.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 9:39am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Bumble, I was referring at the time to non-Americans on the JCC, not the world at large. In my personal experience, most people have a favorable view of America, though there might be all kinds of unfavorable stereotypes associated with us.
James. You have nothing to apologize for. I would like to see the negative attitudes towards other nations dissolve altogether as well--and that extends to the US.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Darth_Bumble
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
5/14 9:47am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Souderwan posted:
Bumble, I was referring at the time to non-Americans on the JCC, not the world at large. In my personal experience, most people have a favorable view of America, though there might be all kinds of unfavorable stereotypes associated with us.
I know. That's why I quoted the statement without all the other context. And as for unfavorable stereotypes, it just goes with the territory. Nothing to lose sleep over.
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"...and the pain was enough to make a shy, bald Buddhist reflect and plan a mass murder..."
"I don't believe in reincarnation because I refuse to come back as a bug or a rabbit."
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Andalite-Bandit
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 10:43am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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When I was in Germany and met some German students there, the general attitude seemed to be a dislike for the US government and their foreign policy actions, but an appreciation for American culture and people. And particularly American television shows and music. I think a lot of people here can't separate society from government and take insults against their government as insults against themselves. Disliking or criticizing the American government is not "hating America".
Also I see my koala bear save strategy is a failure of the highest order. Ridiculous.
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Sauntaero
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
5/14 11:19am
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
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Darth Bumble posted:
Sauntaero posted:
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Darth_Bumble posted:
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If you love your way of life, your culture and the principles and values on which they are based, and if you believe these things are worth preserving (even at some personal cost), then you love your country.
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I would be hesitant to link any of those things that I love with the US government/constitution/culture/whatever. To me, my enjoyment of life has nothing to do with the country I'm in.
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How do you preserve a way of life without preserving the culture that allows it and the country that protects it? The world is full of people who are ready and willing to fill the void of a culture left crumbling due to neglect.
Would you be able to clarify this? I'm not seeing where it's going, and I'll hold off commenting until I know for sure... 
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Whether they give you a medal or just shoot you--either way, it'll be a terrific show.'
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:51pm
Subject:
RE: George W. Bush Sewage Plant
- Date Edited:
5/14 3:52pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
GrandAdmiralJello
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Andalite-Bandit posted:
Disliking or criticizing the American government is not "hating America".
But along the same vein, a presidential administration or a current Congress is not the same thing as the nation or the American political system as a whole. You can think the worst things about people in office and still be patriotic.
Whereas it seems that on the JCC, patriotism is a dirty word because it implies being a supporter of the administration's policies.
(also: it's possible to have respect for the president and the office as an institution even though you think the person occupying it is doing a lousy job).
That's what I think Souderwan was trying to say, but getting bogged up in. When he means a lack of nuance, he means that sometimes people take an "all or nothing" approach. While it certainly isn't fair to paint everyone on the JCC with a single brush, it might be more fair to say that what we're hearing from people is more "all or nothing" than anything else (though again, it's not everyone--it's just easily seen). Didn't we learn from Bush's mistake--"you're with us or you're against us" is not a good approach.
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