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Topic:
[GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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PulsarSkate
Title: Ex Mod
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:36pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
- Date Edited:
5/15 10:36pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
PulsarSkate
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nvmd.
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lexu
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:37pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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Darth Mischievous posted:
lexu posted:
Polygamy has nothing to do with equality under the law. Think it through, people.
Fallacious argumentation.
The argument is that homosexuals are born into their preference and are entitled to legal recognition of their relationship by society and the benefits of the legal arrangement. The same argumentation can be made for a man that feels he was born naturally to love more than one woman; that it is his nature; and that he should not be denied the 'right' to marry the women he loves. It is a 'nature' and 'love' argument of entitlement to legal recognition by the government, decided not by the people to determine societal parameters but by jurists.
If the people of a given State decide that the recognition of legal marriage will be expanded to alternative lifestyles, then they have that right to decide social parameters. The difference here is that jurists are deciding these issues and overstepping their authority.
Perhaps the people of California will, like many other States, rightly remove the ability for judiciary overreach and reinforce the right of the people to determine social parameters through a State Constitutional Amendment.
It has nothing to do with establishing social parameters, but rather upholding the ones we've chosen to bind ourselves to in the constitution which says everyone is equal. Right? Polygamy is illegal for everyone. Marriage is only illegal for gays. That doesn't adhere to the social standards we've already set under the law. So explain how that is a fallacious argument.
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:37pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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Lord_Vivec posted:
harpuah posted:
Vivec, what if the people who wish to marry are athiest or agnostic?
Then they can go to a court and fill out the necessary papers and get a judge to perform the ceremony. But why do they need to have a religious term for their ceremony when, in fact, they don't want anything to do with religion?
Which religion are you referring to then?
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:39pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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harpuah posted:
Lord_Vivec posted:
harpuah posted:
Vivec, what if the people who wish to marry are athiest or agnostic?
Then they can go to a court and fill out the necessary papers and get a judge to perform the ceremony. But why do they need to have a religious term for their ceremony when, in fact, they don't want anything to do with religion?
Which religion are you referring to then?
Does it matter? Does the atheist or agnostic care which religion the word "marriage" came from? Why does the atheist need to use the word "marriage"?
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lexu
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:40pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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Because regardless of where it came from, it's a legal term?
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:40pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
- Date Edited:
5/15 10:42pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
harpuah
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Good job turning it around... but I meant... what religion are YOU referring to?
PS... I'm not athiest... thanks for the judgement.
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:41pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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Lord_Vivec posted:
GrandAdmiralJello posted:
Vivec: You're continually begging the question.
Marriage is not a religious term, just as the laws against killing and stealing are not inherently religious.
Marriage was derived form matrimony, as in the sacrament of matrimony, which is religious. Therefore, marriage is a religious term, as it was invented from matrimony.
Really? I could have sworn it came from the Latin verb marito, maritare, maritavi, maritatus.
And it did. Just as matrimony came from the Latin word matrimonium, matrimonii.
It is strictly a secular term from the beginning.
So with that, let's be done with this illusion that the word marriage has anything at all to do with Christianity, mmkay? We're talking about the court case and the legalities. Anyone suggesting there's some religious monopoly on the term is conclusively and utterly wrong.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:42pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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harpuah posted:
Good job turning it around... but I meant... what religion are YOU referring to.
I was referring to the Catholic Church, which coined the term "matrimony." I am unfamiliar what other religions call it, if they even have one.
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:46pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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Did they "coin the term" blind ignorance too?
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jp-30
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:47pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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Lord_Vivec posted:
harpuah posted:
Vivec, what if the people who wish to marry are athiest or agnostic?
Then they can go to a court and fill out the necessary papers and get a judge to perform the ceremony. But why do they need to have a religious term for their ceremony when, in fact, they don't want anything to do with religion?
I'm atheist. My wife's Catholic. WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!!? 
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:48pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
- Date Edited:
5/15 10:48pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
harpuah
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jp-30 posted:
Lord_Vivec posted:
harpuah posted:
Vivec, what if the people who wish to marry are athiest or agnostic?
Then they can go to a court and fill out the necessary papers and get a judge to perform the ceremony. But why do they need to have a religious term for their ceremony when, in fact, they don't want anything to do with religion?
I'm atheist. My wife's Catholic. WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!!?
SHOOT EACHOTHER DEAD, YOU HEATHENS!
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:48pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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An easy fix would be to use the purely secular term marriage to define the legal term, and then use "religious union" for the other type. Since we're concerned about etymology and the original uses of the term, that would make the most sense.
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Obi-Zahn Kenobi
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:48pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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As Iello pointed out, Vivec, the Latins invented the term matrimony, long before Jesus Christ gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of Heaven.
Anyways, can we lay off of Vivec on this? Because that's all the last two pages have been, and it's boring.
Basically, I am apprehensive about gay marriage because I don't want any churches getting in trouble for refusing to perform or recognize homosexual marriages. I mean, if marriage between a man and a man is a right, then if two men go to their local parish and ask their priest to perform a marriage for them, and he says, "Sure! It'll be swell." Then the diocese finds out about it and excommunicates the priest, does he not now have legal grounds to sue the Catholic church?
Obviously, right now the precedent of the Boy Scouts holds. But I mean, what if it was a black man and a white woman, and a theoretically racist Catholic church excommunicated the priest for performing that marriage?
I don't want the government forcing religions to recognize gay marriage. If the government wants to recognize it, leave it up to the people.
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PulsarSkate
Title: Ex Mod
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:50pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
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jp-30 posted:
Lord_Vivec posted:
harpuah posted:
Vivec, what if the people who wish to marry are athiest or agnostic?
Then they can go to a court and fill out the necessary papers and get a judge to perform the ceremony. But why do they need to have a religious term for their ceremony when, in fact, they don't want anything to do with religion?
I'm atheist. My wife's Catholic. WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO!!?
OMG MY MARRIAGE IS A SHAM!
On a serious note, Vivec, your arguements about origins of the term 'marriage' doesn't really have a place here. SO while respecting your ability to have an opinion on the topic, I must kindly ask you to drop the topic, okay? 
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:50pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
- Date Edited:
5/15 10:52pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lord_Vivec
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I've found it funny why you guys care about my anger at marriage being used by the government? I support the right for same-sex couples to get the same rights and benefits as heterosexual couples. Isn't that enough for you?
I don't want the government forcing religions to recognize gay marriage. If the government wants to recognize it, leave it up to the people.
Religions do not have to recognize marriage. I don't see a case where it has to. Perhaps if you could provide an example.
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