| Author |
Topic:
[GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
|
Date Posted:
5/16 5:41pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
Carmen: You forgot the one about nomenclature. Like Dani said earlier, though, we'll have to wait until we get a good summary of the majority's argument to be sure about it, but it does match everything I've heard about the issues. I've never heard that CA civil unions were lacking any rights that married couples have.
So if that is true, then it is fair to say that the court was overturning a law for no good constitutional reason since there was no discrimination going on--while also making a fairly HUGE change in the common law understanding of marriage (which is a much better point to make then nonsense about a religious view of it).
There are fair issues to be raised that we just aren't sure of yet, and it'd be bad to sweep them under the rug because there are a lot of homophobic and/or fundamentalist arguments that don't make sense.
-----signature-----
SPQR
Vates Ιυλιαδις
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius
Tu regere imperio populos,Romanæ,memento;hæ tibi erunt artes;
pascisque imponere morem,parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Whitey
Registered:
Jan '03
|
Date Posted:
5/16 5:42pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
|
Go Ellen and Portia!
-----signature-----
"Gay people are born everyday. You will never legislate that away."
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
ellybeanjay
Registered:
Jul '00
|
Date Posted:
5/16 5:48pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
|
Didn't you say that civil unions in California were lacking some of the privileges of marriage? And if so, doesn't that bring up separate but equal issues?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
|
Date Posted:
5/16 6:08pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
|
No, I said that I wasn't sold on the taxation issue personally. But as far as the law goes, there's no difference between a civil union and a married couple in any regard, IIRC.
-----signature-----
SPQR
Vates Ιυλιαδις
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius
Tu regere imperio populos,Romanæ,memento;hæ tibi erunt artes;
pascisque imponere morem,parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Ed_Abbey
Registered:
Jan '08
|
Date Posted:
5/16 6:13pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
ellybeanjay posted:
And if so, doesn't that bring up separate but equal issues?
-----signature-----
To have her please just one day wake...
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
|
Date Posted:
5/16 6:17pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
- Date Edited:
5/16 6:18pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
GrandAdmiralJello
|
I provided all the arguments the fellow made as well as a summary in my own words, so please don't waste my time asking questions that were already addressed, Abbey.
The point is that it's very disingenuous to paint it as a civil rights issue when that's the entire REASON there was a court case over it--and that the majority ruling is not necessarily final until the appeals process is over. Don't beg the question and throw off the burden of proof to others when (as far as we know) the details are debateable either way.
The majority said yes, this is a civil rights violation and is unconstitutional. The minority disputed that and said that as far as the letter of the law went, there's no difference in treatment whatsoever.
This is an important concern: because if those social conservatives who are even now trying to pass an amendment that'll void this ruling succeed, it'll likely overturn that very equality that existed beforehand and make the situation WORSE for homosexual couples who want equal treatment.
-----signature-----
SPQR
Vates Ιυλιαδις
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius
Tu regere imperio populos,Romanæ,memento;hæ tibi erunt artes;
pascisque imponere morem,parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Ed_Abbey
Registered:
Jan '08
|
Date Posted:
5/16 6:20pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
GrandAdmiralJello posted:
I provided all the arguments the fellow made as well as a summary in my own words, so please don't waste my time asking questions that were already addressed, Abbey.
The point is that it's very disingenuous to paint it as a civil rights issue when that's the entire REASON there was a court case over it--and that the majority ruling is not necessarily final until the appeals process is over. Don't beg the question and throw off the burden of proof to others when (as far as we know) the details are debateable either way.
The majority said yes, this is a civil rights violation and is unconstitutional. The minority disputed that and said that as far as the letter of the law went, there's no difference in treatment whatsoever.
This is an important concern: because if those social conservatives who are even now trying to pass an amendment that'll void this ruling succeed, it'll likely overturn that very equality that existed beforehand and make the situation WORSE for homosexual couples who want equal treatment.
Ah. Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for wasting your time on a Star Wars message board.
-----signature-----
To have her please just one day wake...
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Eleventh_Guard
Registered:
Dec '05
|
Date Posted:
5/16 6:21pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
In 25 years, a bright-eyed little girl is going to look at me and say "Uncle Ryan, Is it true that when you were little, Mr. Andrew and Mr. Kaden who live across the street couldn't get married because they're both boys? And that you had to walk to school because telly... taper... teleporters weren't invented yet?"
And I'll have to say "Well, we had cars, running on a fuel called 'gasoline' that is kind of like car food, stuff that ran out right before the Hydrocarbon War. But no, two men couldn't get married when I was little."
And she'll say, "That was stupid. They're nice. Color with me? My mommy bought me some new electric crayons. But don't break them or she'll get mad."
And everybody except a few people muttering about the good old days will have a chuckle over how silly we were way back when.
-----signature-----
A conversation on Dathomir:
Welk: My daughter did that... I am blameless. I'm not even armed.
Jacen: And you just let her do whatever she wants?
Welk: You're new here, aren't you?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Ed_Abbey
Registered:
Jan '08
|
Date Posted:
5/16 6:30pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
Eleventh_Guard posted:
In 25 years, a bright-eyed little girl is going to look at me and say "Uncle Ryan, Is it true that when you were little, Mr. Andrew and Mr. Kaden who live across the street couldn't get married because they're both boys? And that you had to walk to school because telly... taper... teleporters weren't invented yet?"
And I'll have to say "Well, we had cars, running on a fuel called 'gasoline' that is kind of like car food, stuff that ran out right before the Hydrocarbon War. But no, two men couldn't get married when I was little."
And she'll say, "That was stupid. They're nice. Color with me? My mommy bought me some new electric crayons. But don't break them or she'll get mad."
And everybody except a few people muttering about the good old days will have a chuckle over how silly we were way back when.
I want this framed. 
-----signature-----
To have her please just one day wake...
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
ellybeanjay
Registered:
Jul '00
|
Date Posted:
5/16 6:31pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
I don't understand his arguments that the situation is different here from the Jim Crow laws and segregation - in both cases, laws that went against the constitution were overturned - in one it was about racial discrimination, and in the other it was about the right to marry.
I'm not experienced in reading legal documents, though, so that might be aprt of it.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
DarthPoojaNaberrie
Registered:
Jun '05
|
Date Posted:
5/16 6:32pm
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
well-intentioned, but a bit too sentimental.
*posts puppies and butterflies anyway*
-----signature-----
*fart*
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Emperor_Billy_Bob
Registered:
Aug '00
|
Date Posted:
5/17 9:39am
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
- Date Edited:
5/17 9:47am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Emperor_Billy_Bob
|
You know what I love about politics? Its the same thing I love about sports.
Lots of smart people chime in, but at the end of the day those who lose have to sit down and shut up.
What annoys me about many posts in this thread is that people are trying to hide their bias against homosexuals behind vague legal terms such as "the will of the people." Amazing that the social conservatives all agree that it is illegal, and the social liberals do not. People are just basing their stance of whether or not it is legal on whether or not they think gays are evil. The issue of its legality is decided by the Courts. The courts decide, and average joe fundy christian cannot overturn that. Its how our country works. Sorry if you don't like it, but life is hard.
The court made a good decision, regardless of whether it "ignores the will of the people" (The people are stupid in most cases. Judicial rulings have changed this country for the better in the last 60 years or so). I hope it continues on to other states.
-----signature-----
"I'd hit it." - Lord Vivec in regards to Adolf Hitler
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
LemmingLord
Registered:
Apr '05
|
Date Posted:
5/17 10:05am
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
Let's decouple the rights of marriage completely into their component parts and make them available to any citizen who can enter into contractual relationships. Let non-government entities decide what to call your particular brand of relationship. I'm all for the government to stop using the word marriage all together.
What's really unconstitutional is that the government is involved in defining "sacred" relationships at all. There's nothing wrong with the government saying that there is a kind of relationship you can enter into where you get x, y and z rights and privileges; but the provisos/prerequisites for entering into these relationships cannot be sexist or racist.
The idea that all other things being equal, that Marcus can enter into a contractual relatinship with Jane, but Marcia cannot shows obvious sexism.
-----signature-----
LemmingLord
Criticise Me
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
|
Date Posted:
5/17 10:10am
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
Emperor_Billy_Bob posted:
You know what I love about politics? Its the same thing I love about sports.
Lots of smart people chime in, but at the end of the day those who lose have to sit down and shut up.
Lots of smart people? How is that ANYTHING like sports?! (or politics)
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Emperor_Billy_Bob
Registered:
Aug '00
|
Date Posted:
5/17 10:14am
Subject:
RE: [GOOOOOOOOO CALI] California lifts gay marriage ban
|
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
Emperor_Billy_Bob posted:
You know what I love about politics? Its the same thing I love about sports.
Lots of smart people chime in, but at the end of the day those who lose have to sit down and shut up.
Lots of smart people? How is that ANYTHING like sports?! (or politics)
I guess the analogy fits sports analysis better than actual sports.
Essentially you hear the talking heads on ESPN tell you who will win the game. But at the end of the day the game plays out on the field/court/whatever.
When two smart people of differing opinions get together they can talk each other into a stalemate of false arguments and horrible unending circular leaps of logic.
In both sports and politics there is a moment when arguments go out the window and it actually gets decided. In politics, that would be rulings or elections, in sports that would be...you know the game.
-----signature-----
"I'd hit it." - Lord Vivec in regards to Adolf Hitler
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
