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Topic:
Are you religious or spiritual?
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Lord_BlackAdder
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
7/15 10:16pm
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
- Date Edited:
7/15 10:19pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lord_BlackAdder
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"Absolute" (not "absolutism",to which Quix was referring),is: that which depends on nothing else for its existence.
Morality, by my definition, is bound to be relative.
We are arguing on two different fronts.
Hmmm.
I'll use some jargon in the next post.
Might make things easier.
Edit: I just read your post. You are arguing "objective" vs "relative".
I was arguing "absolute" (in the Kantian sense) vs "relative".
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Onoto
Title: Risk Host
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
7/15 10:18pm
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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Um, absolute and absolutism are not different. Absolutism simply refers to a specific kind of absolute.
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
7/15 10:19pm
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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See my edit regarding my source. Bear in mind that I'm not making these terms up - they have meaning within the field. Dictionary.com and the like aren't philosophical sources.
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Lord_BlackAdder
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
7/15 10:25pm
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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Quixotic-Sith posted:
See my edit regarding my source. Bear in mind that I'm not making these terms up - they have meaning within the field. Dictionary.com and the like aren't philosophical sources.
Oh, I know...
We started off arguing on different conceptions.
I should have defined my use of the term "absolute" before starting..
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
7/15 10:29pm
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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-RebelScum- posted:
A for instance? All right, I scrolled up to one of your posts and you mentioned both marriage and incest. I don't know why these two developed, but pre-birth control these of course significantly had more consequences then they do now. While it would be an empty claim for me to say these are the reasons for those two senses of morality to develop I think it would be fair to say that situations have changed.
So while I would be willing to accept a universal morality concerning incest or the institution of marriage (even in a myriad of forms) I would say that in all practical purposes with modern birth control and protection that the universal morality shouldn't really matter practically now for whether we accept mutual incest/lack of marriage.
Scummy
Okay, I think I see what you are saying, but this doesn't really seem to be a challenge to the idea of moral absolutism. It's more of a "yeah, it's universal, but not really relevant". If I understand what you are arguing, it's like "yeah, we're all carbon-based, but it's not really important for me at the moment to know that."
Or maybe the fatigue is getting to me, as it's 1:30 AM and I need to sleep.
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Lord_BlackAdder
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
7/15 10:36pm
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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Oh, and Quix, this is the JC.
Advice: quit the useless words and just say what you mean.
I tried to define what we were arguing about, only to understand later you were using "some" words in their philosophical sense.
The list of definitions you provided was, really, utterly useless.
It contributed nothing, and only served to cloud any sensible discussion even more.
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
7/15 10:38pm
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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Lord_BlackAdder posted:
Oh, and Quix, this is the JC.
Advice: quit the useless words and just say what you mean.
I tried to define what we were arguing about, only to understand later you were using "some" words in their philosophical sense.
The list of definitions you provided was, really, utterly useless.
It contributed nothing, and only served to cloud any sensible discussion even more.
Yeah, it's a shame when words have specific meanings and people insist on using them correctly, hoping that others will do the same. Perish the thought that the discussion be used to increase the knowledge of those around us. Next time I'll grunt and point instead. 
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-RebelScum-
Registered:
Feb '04
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Date Posted:
7/15 10:39pm
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
- Date Edited:
7/15 10:42pm (5 edits total)
Edited By:
-RebelScum-
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-RebelScum- posted:
Okay, I think I see what you are saying, but this doesn't really seem to be a challenge to the idea of moral absolutism. It's more of a "yeah, it's universal, but not really relevant". If I understand what you are arguing, it's like "yeah, we're all carbon-based, but it's not really important for me at the moment to know that."
Or maybe the fatigue is getting to me, as it's 1:30 AM and I need to sleep.
I suppose that's what I'm saying, though I don't know about the carbon analogy since you can't violate that. What I'm saying is more of a "Yeah, we're hardwired with morality, but I believe the individual can (and should be allowed) to violate the hardwiring." Though to what level we're actually free is a bit ambiguous. (E.O. Wilson ftw.  )
I may go to bed soon as well.
Scummy
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Lord_BlackAdder
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
7/15 10:44pm
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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Quixotic-Sith posted:
Lord_BlackAdder posted:
Oh, and Quix, this is the JC.
Advice: quit the useless words and just say what you mean.
I tried to define what we were arguing about, only to understand later you were using "some" words in their philosophical sense.
The list of definitions you provided was, really, utterly useless.
It contributed nothing, and only served to cloud any sensible discussion even more.
Yeah, it's a shame when words have specific meanings and people insist on using them correctly, hoping that others will do the same. Perish the thought that the discussion be used to increase the knowledge of those around us. Next time I'll grunt and point instead.
Oh, if you insist on using words beyond their usual meaning, please say so from the onset...at least for the person against whom you are arguing. It will avoid much unpleasantness and posts like mine above.
I quoted the post against which I was arguing, and tried to make it as clear as possible what I was arguing about.
I appreciate that you tried to define your terms: most of them, I maintain, had no relevance whatsoever.
Grunting and pointing still serves: to relevant posts.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
7/16 7:59am
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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Quixotic-Sith posted:
Yeah, it's a shame when words have specific meanings and people insist on using them correctly, hoping that others will do the same. Perish the thought that the discussion be used to increase the knowledge of those around us. Next time I'll grunt and point instead.
Win.
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arwen_sith
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
7/16 8:05am
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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Neither really. Certainly not religious.
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Darth_wanderguard
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
7/16 8:14am
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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Yeah, it's a shame when words have specific meanings and people insist on using them correctly, hoping that others will do the same. Perish the thought that the discussion be used to increase the knowledge of those around us. Next time I'll grunt and point instead.
See, THAT is alot closer to the attitude we all need to have about debate, and discussion in general. People are far too obsessed with proving their point and making the other person look stupid to really understand the purpose of discussion.
Whether it's your point, or your "opponent's" point that ends up more convincing in the end... If you learned something, you won the discussion.
That mentality, to me, seems alot more appealing than a bunch of self-absorbed intellectuals feeding their own bloated egos.
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-RebelScum-
Registered:
Feb '04
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Date Posted:
7/16 9:36am
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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Darth_wanderguard posted:
Whether it's your point, or your "opponent's" point that ends up more convincing in the end... If you learned something, you won the discussion.
I DISAGREE, EN GARDE!
Scummy
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Darth_wanderguard
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
7/16 9:37am
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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Onoto
Title: Risk Host
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
7/16 9:39am
Subject:
RE: Are you religious or spiritual?
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There can be no peace. BLOOD!
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