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Author	Topic: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 11/14/03 11:52am Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	More Moon shot info from Space.com: Cargo-Only Shuttle Still Possible in NASA's Future By Jim Banke Senior Producer, Cape Canaveral Bureau posted: 07:00 am ET 14 November 2003 CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. -- After building its new Orbital Space Plane (OSP) to ferry astronauts to Earth orbit and back, NASA very well may turn to its aging space shuttle fleet for continuing service as the nation's heavy-lifting, cargo-only launch vehicle. "It's an area that we are looking at," Gary Martin, NASA's space architect in Washington, told SPACE.com. "But it's not the only one." In the wake of the shuttle Columbia tragedy there is renewed debate about the future direction NASA will take, and what hardware the space agency needs to take it there. Although not completely set in stone, it is extremely likely that any future launch vehicles NASA develops will divide the roles of lifting people and cargo into Earth orbit. "It's always up for debate," Martin said, noting that launch vehicles such as the Atlas 5 and Delta 4 seem ideal to carry into orbit an OSP with astronauts aboard, while shuttle derived hardware might best solve the larger cargo needs. "We are poised to make a much safer system now, a much more reliable system, based on new technologies. And at the same time bring down the overall costs," Martin said of the OSP specifically and NASA's space transportation needs in general. Exactly how much any of these ideas will cost to build or operate hasn’t been determined yet, and support in Congress for programs such as the OSP is facing some challenges these days. Martin said it’s likely that NASA isn't "articulating the vision very well. I think that what Congress is asking is how does (OSP) fit within the larger picture, and we're developing that." "The United States, if it’s going to be a spacefaring nation, and it’s going to continue exploring the solar system, is going to need a reliable, upgraded system. The next step, past what the shuttle was in technology in order to keep moving forward," Martin said. But if the OSP is adopted as the next piloted spaceship -- whether it's a winged vehicle or shaped like an Apollo-era capsule -- NASA still will need a way to lift large amounts of cargo into Earth orbit. How much cargo? Martin said some studies completed regarding a return to the Moon mission would require launching 265,000 to 440,000 pounds (120 to 200 metric tons) just to get the project started. The goal would be to launch that weight in as few missions as possible hoping to minimize risk and cost -- but there's no easy answer. "We're looking all across the board. And shuttle derivatives are a very important part of that because, quite frankly, the shuttle has quite a lot of up lift capability," Martin said. The space shuttle as it is today is designed to carry up to 65,000 pounds (29,480 kilograms) to a low inclination, low Earth orbit. That number quickly shrinks when flying into the higher inclination orbit where the International Space Station circles the planet. By comparison, the most powerful version of the Atlas 5 is advertised as being able to lift 45,238 pounds (20,520 kilograms) to low Earth orbit. With the three remaining shuttle orbiters still around after the OSP begins operations, along with a launch site and several factories nationwide configured for shuttle hardware, Martin says it makes sense to consider ways take advantage of the existing infrastructure. Back to the drawing board The idea of a cargo-only shuttle is not new. During the 1970s and 1980s the idea was studied and developed somewhat by the Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala. The spacecraft was known as Shuttle-C. The plan was to use the same external tank, solid rocket boosters and main engines to lift a wingless cargo canister to low Earth orbit, where awaiting astronauts could use an orbital maneuvering vehicle or robot arm-equipped spaceship to handle the load. Like the shuttle program, the external tank would be discarded and the booster rockets recovered. But with this concept the spacecraft's main engines also would be recovered, returning to Earth as part of a pod equipped with a heatshield and parachutes. A full-scale mockup of the cargo element and its propulsion pod was built at Marshall, with plans to send it to the Kennedy Space Center for fit checks at the launch pad. Initial launch capability was expected by 1995. But in 1990, as NASA sought for ways to pay for a new shuttle (what became Endeavour) and space station Freedom, the agency called off its Shuttle-C work. Depending on the exact configuration, a Shuttle-C could lift two or three times more weight than a standard shuttle. It's interesting to note that while space advocates lament the loss of the heavy lifting Saturn 5 Moon rocket, many fail to appreciate the shuttle is, in effect, a heavy-lift booster in the Saturn 5 class. It's just that 100 tons of that cargo is in the form of the reusable winged orbiter. According to Martin the cargo-only shuttle idea remains on the table, but not necessarily in the way as originally proposed for Shuttle-C. The autonomous orbiter "Everyone uses the term Shuttle-C, including myself. But it really means a much more generic look at the pieces that make up the shuttle," Martin said, noting the improved shuttle main engines and recent test firing of a five-segment solid rocket motor help make the shuttle more attractive. "It's a whole family of capability based on the reliable shuttle parts that we know and understand very well," Martin said. In fact, Martin said, the shuttle is so well-known that even after it is no longer needed to carry people, Discovery, Atlantis and Endeavour still could be pressed into service flying in a robot mode -- what NASA is calling the autonomous orbiter. Although never proved in flight, the shuttle is capable of landing by itself except for one critical detail: the landing gear must be lowered by an astronaut. That switch has never been automated, allegedly to ensure job security for the astronauts. "If there are any out of the ordinary disturbances there's no way to deal with it very easily," Martin said, talking about a shuttle flying its final approach to the runway. "That's where a human can make some really quick decisions. However, it is a doable activity" But landing isn't necessarily the toughest part of flying a shuttle without a crew. The rendezvous and docking portion of a flight to the space station is more worrisome. "What we're trying to do is to understand how hard that is," Martin said. "These are not trivial questions. Docking autonomously with the kind of mass the shuttle has, well, you know the risks are high." I wonder if parrafin(candle wax) is still up for debate for use as a solid rocket fuel replacement. I believe there are 'live off the land' techniques for the Moon that could keep NASA from having to ship over 120 tons to the Moon to get started; glass, plastics, hydrogen, helium, all these things exist there. If they go with the Shuttle C I hope they fulfill the wishes of the Space Island Group(in the head post btw) and use the main fuel tanks to build a rotating space station instead of letting the tanks burn up in the atmosphere. Speaking of space stations, MasterAero, if I remember correctly there is a section of the station that is basically a form of rubber that is stronger than most metals and is supposed to have been attached as a shelter against radiation and solar flares. Why not build the whole station with this material? -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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MasterAero Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 11/14/03 12:21pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Interesting article. The concepts with boosters I've seen for a heavy cargo vehicle have all been liquid based and reusable flyback boosters. SRBs are seen as less-safe so I'm not sure paraffin boosters or any type of SRBs would be used. Don't know anything currently made like that rubber material on station. At one point I know there was a plan to have a soft structure module to give protection that may be the material you were talking about. I'm pretty sure that module has been cancelled. Don't really know more than that about it. -----signature----- My whole life all I've wanted to do is fly, bomb stuff, shoot people down.
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 11/14/03 1:01pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Ah ha, I did just find info on it. Kinda hard to find unless you know exactly what is was. It was the Hab Module, an inflateable module with water tanks filling the void between outer space and the inner walls to help protect against radiation and such. I don't know which came first but this Hab is also on the Mars Direct drawing boards for its ease of use. There is a design for a Moon home from the Millennial Foundation along the same lines. A crater is used because it is partially submerged, a spherical, clear plastic double layer bag is inflated over and around the crater(like a dome but it also goes beneath the crater floor). Between the double layer is simply a thickness of water for protection against radiation as well. Key words were 'soft', 'inflate', 'module', 'space station'. I just did not dig properly. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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MasterAero Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 11/14/03 1:20pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Yep, unfortunately the HAB module was short lived. Not sure why..budget probably. Astronaut training on bag system....Yellow and Blue make green... Some relatively good news: NASA Ranks First in a Survey of the "Best Places to Work in the Federal Government" Survey story Yippeee..NASA MSFC got first place. -----signature----- My whole life all I've wanted to do is fly, bomb stuff, shoot people down.
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Obi-Wan_Skywalker_29 Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 11/14/03 1:46pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD - Date Edited: 11/14/03 1:51pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Obi-Wan_Skywalker_29
	But isn't NASA a civilian agency? -----signature----- Stephen Colbert is my hero.
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MasterAero Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 11/14/03 4:45pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	NASA is a government run and funded agency. The employees are federal civil servants paid directly by the govt the same way the FBI, CIA, and FAA are govt agencies. -----signature----- My whole life all I've wanted to do is fly, bomb stuff, shoot people down.
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Obi-Wan_Skywalker_29 Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 11/14/03 7:59pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Hm, did something change after Apollo? Because everything I've read said when NASA was created, it was deliberately made a civilan agency, so it wouldn't seem like we were putting the military in space. -----signature----- Stephen Colbert is my hero.
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 11/15/03 6:45am Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Sea launch is a civilian company. NASA is a government body that funds what are essentially civilian projects. Basically, MasterAero is a civilian who works for the government. He is not a part of the government, he is not in their military, he simply got the right education and got hired by the governemnt. I think that's about right. The folks who run NASA go to Congress for the budget, they make a presentation of goals and ideas and Congress gives the OK or says no. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 11/15/03 2:07pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Something inspirational for the 400th post, JFK: September 12, 1962 TEXT OF PRESIDENT JOHN KENNEDY'S RICE STADIUM MOON SPEECH President Pitzer, Mr. Vice President, Governor, Congressman Thomas, Senator Wiley, and Congressman Miller, Mr. Webb, Mr. Bell, scientists, distinguished guests, and ladies and gentlemen: I appreciate your president having made me an honorary visiting professor, and I will assure you that my first lecture will be very brief. I am delighted to be here and I'm particularly delighted to be here on this occasion. We meet at a college noted for knowledge, in a city noted for progress, in a State noted for strength, and we stand in need of all all three, for we meet in an hour of change and challenge, in a decade of hope and fear, in an age of both knowledge and ignorance. The greater our knowledge increases, the greater our ignorance unfolds. Despite the striking fact that most of the scientists that the world has ever known are alive and working today, despite the fact that this Nation¹s own scientific manpower is doubling every 12 years in a rate of growth more than three times that of our population as a whole, despite that, the vast stretches of the unknown and the unanswered and the unfinished still far outstrip our collective comprehension. No man can fully grasp how far and how fast we have come, but condense, if you will, the 50,000 years of man¹s recorded history in a time span of but a half-century. Stated in these terms, we know very little about the first 40 years, except at the end of them advanced man had learned to use the skins of animals to cover them. Then about 10 years ago, under this standard, man emerged from his caves to construct other kinds of shelter. Only five years ago man learned to write and use a cart with wheels. Christianity began less than two years ago. The printing press came this year, and then less than two months ago, during this whole 50-year span of human history, the steam engine provided a new source of power. Newton explored the meaning of gravity. Last month electric lights and telephones and automobiles and airplanes became available. Only last week did we develop penicillin and television and nuclear power, and now if America's new spacecraft succeeds in reaching Venus, we will have literally reached the stars before midnight tonight. This is a breathtaking pace, and such a pace cannot help but create new ills as it dispels old, new ignorance, new problems, new dangers. Surely the opening vistas of space promise high costs and hardships, as well as high reward. So it is not surprising that some would have us stay where we are a little longer to rest, to wait. But this city of Houston, this State of Texas, this country of the United States was not built by those who waited and rested and wished to look behind them. This country was conquered by those who moved forward--and so will space. William Bradford, speaking in 1630 of the founding of the Plymouth Bay Colony, said that all great and honorable actions are accompanied with great difficulties, and both must be enterprised and overcome with answerable courage. If this capsule history of our progress teaches us anything, it is that man, in his quest for knowledge and progress, is determined and cannot be deterred. The exploration of space will go ahead, whether we join in it or not, and it is one of the great adventures of all time, and no nation which expects to be the leader of other nations can expect to stay behind in the race for space. Those who came before us made certain that this country rode the first waves of the industrial revolutions, the first waves of modern invention, and the first wave of nuclear power, and this generation does not intend to founder in the backwash of the coming age of space. We mean to be a part of it--we mean to lead it. For the eyes of the world now look into space, to the moon and to the planets beyond, and we have vowed that we shall not see it governed by a hostile flag of conquest, but by a banner of freedom and peace. We have vowed that we shall not see space filled with weapons of mass destruction, but with instruments of knowledge and understanding. Yet the vows of this Nation can only be fulfilled if we in this Nation are first, and, therefore, we intend to be first. In short, our leadership in science and in industry, our hopes for peace and security, our obligations to ourselves as well as others, all require us to make this effort, to solve these mysteries, to solve them for the good of all men, and to become the world's leading space-faring nation. We set sail on this new sea because there is new knowledge to be gained, and new rights to be won, and they must be won and used for the progress of all people. For space science, like nuclear science and all technology, has no conscience of its own. Whether it will become a force for good or ill depends on man, and only if the United States occupies a position of pre-eminence can we help decide whether this new ocean will be a sea of peace or a new terrifying theater of war. I do not say the we should or will go unprotected against the hostile misuse of space any more than we go unprotected against the hostile use of land or sea, but I do say that space can be explored and mastered without feeding the fires of war, without repeating the mistakes that man has made in extending his writ around this globe of ours. There is no strife, no prejudice, no national conflict in outer space as yet. Its hazards are hostile to us all. Its conquest deserves the best of all mankind, and its opportunity for peaceful cooperation many never come again. But why, some say, the moon? Why choose this as our goal? And they may well ask why climb the highest mountain? Why, 35 years ago, fly the Atlantic? Why does Rice play Texas? We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too. It is for these reasons that I regard the decision last year to shift our efforts in space from low to high gear as among the most important decisions that will be made during my incumbency in the office of the Presidency. In the last 24 hours we have seen facilities now being created for the greatest and most complex exploration in man's history. We have felt the ground shake and the air shattered by the testing of a Saturn C-1 booster rocket, many times as powerful as the Atlas which launched John Glenn, generating power equivalent to 10,000 automobiles with their accelerators on the floor. We have seen the site where the F-1 rocket engines, each one as powerful as all eight engines of the Saturn combined, will be clustered together to make the advanced Saturn missile, assembled in a new building to be built at Cape Canaveral as tall as a 48 story structure, as wide as a city block, and as long as two lengths of this field. Within these last 19 months at least 45 satellites have circled the earth. Some 40 of them were "made in the United States of America" and they were far more sophisticated and supplied far more knowledge to the people of the world than those of the Soviet Union. The Mariner spacecraft now on its way to Venus is the most intricate instrument in the history of space science. The accuracy of that shot is comparable to firing a missile from Cape Canaveral and dropping it in this stadium between the the 40-yard lines. Transit satellites are helping our ships at sea to steer a safer course. Tiros satellites have given us unprecedented warnings of hurricanes and storms, and will do the same for forest fires and icebergs. We have had our failures, but so have others, even if they do not admit them. And they may be less public. To be sure, we are behind, and will be behind for some time in manned flight. But we do not intend to stay behind, and in this decade, we shall make up and move ahead. The growth of our science and education will be enriched by new knowledge of our universe and environment, by new techniques of learning and mapping and observation, by new tools and computers for industry, medicine, the home as well as the school. Technical institutions, such as Rice, will reap the harvest of these gains. And finally, the space effort itself, while still in its infancy, has already created a great number of new companies, and tens of thousands of new jobs. Space and related industries are generating new demands in investment and skilled personnel, and this city and this State, and this region, will share greatly in this growth. What was once the furthest outpost on the old frontier of the West will be the furthest outpost on the new frontier of science and space. Houston, your City of Houston, with its Manned Spacecraft Center, will become the heart of a large scientific and engineering community. During the next 5 years the National Aeronautics and Space Administration expects to double the number of scientists and engineers in this area, to increase its outlays for salaries and expenses to $60 million a year; to invest some $200 million in plant and laboratory facilities; and to direct or contract for new space efforts over $1 billion from this Center in this City. To be sure, all this costs us all a good deal of money. This year¹s space budget is three times what it was in January 1961, and it is greater than the space budget of the previous eight years combined. That budget now stands at $5,400 million a year--a staggering sum, though somewhat less than we pay for cigarettes and cigars every year. Space expenditures will soon rise some more, from 40 cents per person per week to more than 50 cents a week for every man, woman and child in the United Stated, for we have given this program a high national priority--even though I realize that this is in some measure an act of faith and vision, for we do not now know what benefits await us. But if I were to say, my fellow citizens, that we shall send to the moon, 240,000 miles away from the control station in Houston, a giant rocket more than 300 feet tall, the length of this football field, made of new metal alloys, some of which have not yet been invented, capable of standing heat and stresses several times more than have ever been experienced, fitted together with a precision better than the finest watch, carrying all the equipment needed for propulsion, guidance, control, communications, food and survival, on an untried mission, to an unknown celestial body, and then return it safely to earth, re-entering the atmosphere at speeds of over 25,000 miles per hour, causing heat about half that of the temperature of the sun--almost as hot as it is here today--and do all this, and do it right, and do it first before this decade is out--then we must be bold. I'm the one who is doing all the work, so we just want you to stay cool for a minute. [laughter] However, I think we're going to do it, and I think that we must pay what needs to be paid. I don't think we ought to waste any money, but I think we ought to do the job. And this will be done in the decade of the sixties. It may be done while some of you are still here at school at this college and university. It will be done during the term of office of some of the people who sit here on this platform. But it will be done. And it will be done before the end of this decade. I am delighted that this university is playing a part in putting a man on the moon as part of a great national effort of the United States of America. Many years ago the great British explorer George Mallory, who was to die on Mount Everest, was asked why did he want to climb it. He said, "Because it is there." Well, space is there, and we're going to climb it, and the moon and the planets are there, and new hopes for knowledge and peace are there. And, therefore, as we set sail we ask God's blessing on the most hazardous and dangerous and greatest adventure on which man has ever embarked. Thank you. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 11/16/03 5:51am Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	I posted this in an old Senate thread on trips to Mars: Nuclear engine promises to slash travel times to Mars BY JEFF FOUST SPACEFLIGHT NOW Posted: January 19, 2001 A novel type of nuclear reactor could cut make it possible for spacecraft to travel from the Earth to Mars in as little as two weeks, one Israeli researcher has found. Yigal Ronen, a professor of nuclear engineering at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, believes that americium-242m (Am-242m), a little-known isotope of an artificially produced element, could power future robotic or human spacecraft far more efficiently than chemical or other nuclear propulsion sources. Ronen found that Am-242m could sustain nuclear fission even when formed into thin sheets less than a micron (millionth of a meter) thick. Such thin sheets would let the byproducts of the fission reaction to easily escape their fuel elements, allowing them to ionize and heat materials like hydrogen that could serve as a propellant. "The gas will be magnetically confined so temperatures of about 250,000 degrees can be reached," explained Ronen. "With such temperatures a velocity of 80 km per second can be obtained." Ronen estimates that such an engine on a typical robotic spacecraft would require only about 375 grams of Am-242m per day, or several kilograms for the trip from Earth to Mars. The material could be produced by irradiating another isotope, Am-241, with neutrons, a process that Ronen admits is expensive today but still feasible. The idea of using americium to power spacecraft is still in the earliest concept stages, Ronen emphasized. "We have not done an elaborate design," he said. "Actual reactor design, refueling, heat removal, and safety provisions for manned vehicles have not yet been examined." Another issue that would have to be addressed by a mission using an americium or other nuclear-powered engine is strong opposition by many environmental and anti-nuclear activists to any spacecraft mission that uses radioactive isotopes. In 1997 a small but vocal group of protestors staged rallies and made legal attempts to stop the launch of NASA's Cassini mission, which carries 32 kg of plutonium dioxide in heavily-shielded radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs). Ronen shrugged off such political issues. "The controversy about using radioisotopes in space is not related to a real problem, it is mainly a political issue," he said. "I don't know how to deal with a problem which is 'no problem'." This proposal is not the only concept for propulsion systems that could shorten travel times to Mars. Another proposal, the Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (VASIMR), would use magnetic fields and electromagnetic waves to heat hydrogen, turning it into a high-velocity propellant like Ronen's americium engine. The VASIMR team, led by NASA astronaut and plasma physicist Franklin Chang-Diaz, believes such an engine could send a human mission from Earth to Mars in 90 days. Ronen believes that, given time, americium will prove to be a key fuel for future space missions, citing the support of, among others, Nobel laureate physicist Carlo Rubbia. "Rubbia has also recognized that this is the most probable fuel that will be getting us to Mars and back," Ronen said. "I think that we are now far enough advanced to interest international space programs in taking a closer look at americium-based space vehicles." But, there is a slight problem. NERVA is highly attractive for this mission because it is proven. Alternatives have been proposed and have adherents, but each has its own drawbacks, points out Dr. Michael Houts of NASA/Marshall. For example, Americium 242m has been proposed as an alternative to the uranium 235 used in NERVA. It is easier to split, but is extremely difficult to refine from plutonium waste - and even from more common, unusable isotopes of americium - and it's radioactive. "The big advantage of uranium systems is they're largely not radioactive at launch," an important environmental concern, Houts explained. "We don't see an advantage to going to that type of isotope (Am 242m)." Ok, as a space based system then, it is great. The M2P2 would take 3 months to get to the same speed, but it's clean. Pouring radiation into space is like dumping a cup of water into the ocean. I have no ethical concerns over this type of fission. It reminded me of the Larry Niven stories concerning the Belter population of miners who fly around the solar system in Single Ships capable of 1G accelerations. I think an M2P2 system would compliment it in the aspect of breakdowns. If the engine fails you still have a "sail" to use to get to safety. But of course, as that last bit says, it looks like AM242 is no longer a major consideration. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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MasterAero Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 11/17/03 6:15am Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	VLM, I would agree with your description of NASA as a civilian agency. Interesting note, I would say about half of the astronauts are active military. They're just on assignment to NASA but still receive military pay, maintain their rank, and it counts to their service committment. The main reason is their experience/qualifications make them suitable for being an astronaut. (mostly the pilots and mission commanders) If anyone's interested in what it takes to become a astronaut I'll post some info. On the nuclear issue, I think a lot of the concern is with launching the nuclear material. I know on JIMO the plans were to have such a secure container it would withstand any failure/accident. Some people are going to protest regardless. The people who are against nuclear pollution in space need to study how much natural raditation exists. (I like the pouring a cup into the ocean analogy) -----signature----- My whole life all I've wanted to do is fly, bomb stuff, shoot people down.
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 11/17/03 11:32am Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD - Date Edited: 11/17/03 11:34am (1 edits total) Edited By: VadersLaMent
	I'd love to see info on becoming an astronaut. I'm making an easy guess that there will be alotof Moon talk for awhile. Here is a little something from Space.com from an astronomer's perspective: Moon Seen as Astronomical Outpost By Leonard David Senior Space Writer posted: 11:00 am ET 17 November 2003 The barren Moon could become an astronomer's paradise, an ideal spot for telescopes and other devices to scope out the heavens as never before. Creating the lunar lookout is one proposal under review during the weeklong fifth gathering of the International Lunar Exploration Working Group (ILEWG) is being held this week on the Kohala Coast, Hawai'i Island. Astronauts, scientists and engineers, as well as business people and entrepreneurs are sharing ways to convert the bleak Moon into a bustling, off-Earth continent for scientific research, technology testing, producing energy, even as practice ground for future expeditions to Mars. Representatives from various spacefaring nations, including China, India, and Japan are taking part in the event, seeking to develop global and inter-global partnerships to further a lunar exploration agenda. Irrational taboo and paranoia about the Moon "The Moon is the next logical step after the space station," said Steve Durst, ILEWG 5 Co-chair and head of Space Age Publishing Company. "It is important that we become a multi-planet species…and that begins at the Moon." Durst said that this week's ILEWG get-together brings to the table interests of the six major spacefaring powers: the United States, Russia, Europe, Japan, China and India. "That's the big story of this gathering…the international nature of lunar exploration that's forming," he noted. "NASA has had an irrational taboo and paranoia about the Moon for a long time," Durst said. "If you just go straight to Mars nothing will change." The number one goal of the conference, Durst said, is to see people on the Moon within the decade. To kick-start that objective, a strategy to be presented is planting on the lunar surface an initial astronomical capability. That first element would later be serviced and upgraded by "astronomer technicians", as would a build-up of other observational gear. In tending a growing cluster of lunar-based instruments, a human presence on the Moon would evolve, he said. Considering the Moon as a heavenly counterpart to a mountaintop on Earth suitable for astronomy fits well given the locale of the meeting, Durst added. The summit of Mauna Kea on the Island of Hawaii, for instance, hosts the world's largest astronomical observatory, with telescopes operated by astronomers from eleven countries. There are currently thirteen working telescopes near the summit of Mauna Kea. Nine of them are for optical and infrared astronomy, three of them are for submillimeter wavelength astronomy and one is for radio astronomy. Astronomical complex Another proposal to be suggested at ILEWG is an astrobiology mission to the south pole of the Moon. Long-time lunar advocate, Paul Lowman, a scientist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, is on tap to describe robotic missions to the region of the south pole of the Moon. The primary objective is to emplace there a four telescope, passively-cooled submillimeter interferometric array. The telescopes would be spread out across the lunar surface. Dubbed the Lunar Submillimeter Probe of the Evolution of Cosmic Structure (LSPECS), "molecular astronomy" would be carried out, Lowman proposes. More than 120 molecular species in interstellar space have been discovered, specifically in giant molecular clouds. Most of these species are possible pre-biotic material from which life may have arisen on the Earth and perhaps elsewhere. It is for these reasons that the LSPECS mission is termed an "astrobiology" one, Lowman suggests. Lunar location of the submillimeter telescopes would be just north of Shackleton crater on the earthward side. There, the prevailing low temperature is ideal for submillimeter astronomy. Better yet is setting up the scopes in permanently shaded craters, such as the floor of Shackleton crater. Such an array could be established within 5 to 10 years, Lowman reports. There's an added bonus in "grounding" such an array on the Moon. Putting LSPECS on the lunar surface would avoid the enormous challenge that formation flying or tethered interferometric arrays face if attempted in free-space. The array is conceived of as being installed on the Moon robotically. "However, should humans return to the Moon, the LSPECS could serve as the nucleus of a manned astronomical complex. Astronaut participation has long since been proven invaluable in lunar surface operations, and needs no further justification," Lowman argues. True space independence A return to the Moon is a new destination for the American space program. Paul Spudis, a scientist at the Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel, Maryland, holds that view. "NASA has no future plans for human exploration of space beyond completion of the International Space Station (ISS). Yet human space flight makes up the bulk of the agency’s budget and is also the source of most of the public support the space program retains. Without a new follow-on goal, human spaceflight will stagnate and the entire civil space program may be in jeopardy," Spudis believes. In an address to be given at the ILEWG, provided to SPACE.com by Spudis, he feels the claim that only a human Mars mission will draw the necessary public support is faulty. "The initiation of such a program is unlikely for two reasons: it’s too technically challenging for at least another decade and will cost more money than Congress can be reasonably expected to provide," Spudis explains. "The mission of a lunar return should be to learn how to use off-planet resources. Such a mission is technically challenging, but within relatively easy reach. It gives NASA a task that is directly relevant to future American national and commercial interests in space, thus making it politically palatable," Spudis adds. "A return to the Moon will be the first step towards both true space independence and to the planets beyond," he concludes. Ice wars Sure to be hotly debated within the circle of ILEWG lunar experts, Durst said, is the availability on the Moon of water, pocketed within shaded craters, particularly at the lunar south pole. In the 1990s, observations by both the Pentagon's Clementine spacecraft and NASA's Lunar Prospector suggested that deposits of hydrogen are tucked away in areas of shaded terrain on the Moon. That hydrogen is thought by some scientists to be in the form of water ice. If so, processing that resource into caches of life supporting water, rocket fuel, and breathable air should become feasible. Those observations, however, have been called to question. In the November 13 issue of the journal Nature, radar astronomer Bruce Campbell of the Center for Earth and Planetary Studies at the Smithsonian Institution, along with several colleagues, doubted the claim of thick deposits, or "slabs" of ice at some depth. Using the giant Arecibo Observatory in Puerto Rico, radar pings of the lunar poles show no evidence of thick ice at a depth of several feet at the lunar poles, Campbell reported. "There are no places that we have looked at…where you see that kind of signature," he said in a press statement. Lively debate Crying foul regarding Campbell's recent report is Stewart Nozette, chief scientist for the Clementine mission, now working at the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. He contends that while a weak signature, Clementine yielded data that is consistent with small amounts of ice mixed in with lunar regolith - the topside mix of Moon "soil" and rock. "We never said there were slabs of ice there," Nozette told SPACE.com . This still "lively debate" will not be settled using Earth-based radar, he added. Rather, a radar-carrying lunar orbiter, Nozette said, could better pinpoint the whereabouts of any water ice at the lunar poles. By finding the most likely places, robot landers could be dispatched to those sites for on-the-spot analysis, he said. Meanwhile, Durst concedes that finding water on the Moon would make getting a toehold there easier. "There are those who are pro-ice and those that are de-icers, and others in-between. Whether there's a lot or a little makes it easier, but the goals are still the same," Durst said. "Why the Moon? Quite simply, it's the quickest way to the stars. It's a catalyst. Once we have dominion of the Earth-Moon system, everything will open up for us. Not just Mars and Jupiter…but the whole thing." Not to get far fetched(like I haven't before ), but the Moon is a great for another form of SETI: Astro-archeology. In A.C. Clarke's famous work 2001 A SPace Odyssey(which came from his short story The Sentinal, an artifact from an alien species is found. Given the possibility of von neuman probes the Moon is great place for a dormant device to be waiting. I should make that plural.....'devices'....sending one lil probe between the stars would not be wise given the hostility of space, multiple probes help elliminate the worry of losing ONE probe and therefore losing the mission. I speak of von neuman machines in the forst few pages of this thread. The Asteroids also make a good place for such devices, and the Lagrange points of the Earth-Moon system have a few rocks as well. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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MasterAero Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 11/18/03 5:51am Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD - Date Edited: 11/18/03 5:57am (1 edits total) Edited By: MasterAero
	So you wanna be an astronaut? Its tough. (Maybe this should be its own thread but I put it here) I wanted to add more of what I've found out about it but I don't have much time today. So I'll post a link that has most of the information. Astronauts The first major thing. Must meet many physical standards (Passing that Space Flight Class Physical): Fit exactly on height/weight chart; Be NO taller than 6'4 (My only disqualifier ); have no medical problems (allergies, high blood pressure,etc); meet the eyesight requirements. The other thing is education. Both the Pilot and Mission Specialist routes require either advanced degrees in Applicable sciences/engineering. There are also Medical Doctors. Pilot (Pilots become Commanders) Route: All Candidates so far have come from a branch of the military. Usually the only way to get the flight experience reqd. See the requirements for becoming a pilot in the USAF/USN. Most pilots also have gone to flight test school. Also very tough. Mission/Payload Specialists: I'd say half selected are active/former military and others are civilians. Have advanced degrees related to the space program and experience working in the space program. See the link for more info. Usually there is only 20 or so openings every few years and I think they receive thousands of qualified applicants. I'm sure people are curious about the pay. The range is from 52000 to 96000 per year. Who needs a salary though if you get be an astronaut. -----signature----- My whole life all I've wanted to do is fly, bomb stuff, shoot people down.
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 11/18/03 1:35pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	I am 6'2" tall. Yes! I have ONE qualification! On a happier note, as I drive overnight it is sometimes a fight to find something good on the radio. By flipping through channels I found an early morning show called Coast to Coast. This is basically Fox Mulder's wet dream, it is a discussion show about the paranormal. This is one of the best shows to have a good laugh over that I have ever come across. Topics include Lizard People, Demons from a close dimension, The End Of The World, Psychic Powers and so on. This morning however they had on Phil Plait from the Bad Astronomy web page. Phil is a skeptic where as the host of the show is a believer, they seem to get along well and know each other. So, I called in. I was the next to last caller, didn't have much time really. I asked for some general comments concerning ANTS which are a project at NASA for building swarms of smaller probes rather than just one big probe like Galileo in order to explore the solar system with a high mission survival rate. To this Phil said, "Neat!!". Coupled to this was the idea of searching for probes from other solar systems as even Jill Tarter of SETI commented years ago it is worth a try to conduct in-system SETI. He mentioned von neuman probes and did remeber the Tarter comments. I also asked him if he had heard anything about the Bush proposal for a Moon Shot and he really didn't know anything about it. I would have loved to had more time to talk with Phil, but time was not on our side. Oh well. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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MasterAero Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 11/19/03 6:18am Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Another good article on whats going on with OSP. OSP story -----signature----- My whole life all I've wanted to do is fly, bomb stuff, shoot people down.
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