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Author	Topic: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 2/12/04 9:23am Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	First, a link on ocean planets: Waterworlds....of life? A few snippets: Picture a giant, blue-white world with a planet-wide ocean hundreds of times bigger than the Earth's and 10 times as deep. According to planetary physicists in France and America, such "ocean planets" could be common - and possibly the best places in our galaxy to find life. In particular, some of the extrasolar planetary systems contain "hot jupiters"; gas-giant planets similar to our own Jupiter, but orbiting perilously close to the fires of their parent star. The puzzle is that, if such planets are born so close to their stars, the ferocious heat should long ago have caused them to evaporate. Planetary physicists have been forced to conclude, therefore, that the planets were born much farther from their stars and then "migrated" inward. If such a planet (Ocean World) migrated towards its star, the heat would cause its huge "mantle" of ice to melt, resulting in a planet with a gigantic ocean. "Observational techniques are not good enough to detect such 'ocean planets' yet," Sotin says. "But we think they could be very common in our galaxy." A planet about eight times the mass of the Earth would have about twice the Earth's diameter and gravity at the surface about 50 per cent higher. An ocean 100 kilometres deep is 10 times the depth of the deepest ocean trench and 40 times the average depth of the ocean. With the ocean covering an area six times that of the Earth, we are therefore talking about a volume 240 times greater. "The Earth's ocean is a mere puddle by comparison," Sotin says. "On Earth, hurricanes run out of steam when they encounter land but, on an ocean world, there would be no land to encounter," Sotin says. "There might be super hurricanes." The winds would pile up enormous ocean swells, which would never run in to land. "We're talking about the kind of mountainous waves you get in the Pacific, only more so," Sotin says. Ocean planets are also exciting to planetary scientists because they ought to be relatively easy to detect. Currently, our observational techniques have difficulty detecting even a giant mass such as Jupiter, and such bodies are not detected directly, only by the effect their gravity has on their parent star. The race is on to detect an extrasolar planet directly - by the light it reflects from its sun. For an Earth-like planet - the Holy Grail of planetary searches - this is immensely difficult. "However, for an ocean planet, far bigger and with an ocean shining like a giant silvered mirror, it should be much easier," Sotin says. A few other snippets from around the WWW: nearly 250 of the world's leading experts in planet detection discussed the strategy for finding Earth-like worlds. waterworlds would contain about six times the mass of Earth, in a sphere twice as wide as our planet. They would possess atmospheres and orbit their parent star at roughly the same distance that the Earth is from the Sun. Most excitingly, an ocean of water entirely covers each world and extends over 25 times deeper than the average depth of the oceans on Earth. With twice the radius of the Earth, they will be easily spotted by the Eddington spacecraft, which is designed to detect planets down to half the size of the Earth. "A waterworld passing in front of a star, somewhat cooler than the Sun, will cause a dimming in the stellar light by almost one part in a thousand. That's almost ten times larger than the smallest variation Eddington is designed to detect. So, waterworlds – if they exist – will be a very easy catch for Eddington," says Fabio Favata, ESA’s Eddington Project Scientist. The water world that we know of is Jupiter's moon, Europa. A possible cutaway: Europa is about the size of our own Moon. Had it migrated inward it could have become an ocean planet. There is research with observations from Galileo that both Ganymede and Callisto could aslo be icy crusted planets with oceans underneath. Had Jupiter migrated further inward and taken its moons along, then there could be a miniature solar system within the solar system with water worlds. A quick shot of an alien ocean explorer: There is a possibility for ameteurs here, a decent telescope with a photmultiplier can detect differances in brightness, and many such backyard obervers actively seek star crossing worlds looking for such changes. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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MasterAero Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/12/04 12:41pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD - Date Edited: 2/12/04 1:03pm (2 edits total) Edited By: MasterAero
	From my earlier post: I think Tuesday is when OSP officially became CEV but we weren't sure that was going to happen until then. THere's lots of work to do on program structuring and stuff and I believe O'Keefe said by summer all the new requirements will be out for the new vehicle. I retract that statement...now, OSP is not CEV. There is no official staff (outside of headquarters) supporting that at this time. Urge to kill rising,,,,rising, rising... I'm sure Nasawatch will have details eventually. -----signature----- My whole life all I've wanted to do is fly, bomb stuff, shoot people down.
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 2/12/04 12:56pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	So, there is no staff for CEV? A few web sites have also quoted the NASA chief as saying he is having a few doubts about a Sept/Oct launch for the Space Shuttle. There is also this little article of an aerospace exec who has doubts about the cost and workings of the Bush plan. A hurdle here, a hurdle there. MasterA, is any other NASA person a Star Wars fan that you know of? Just curious. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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MasterAero Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/12/04 1:01pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Well i know a lot more and have been in meetings all day about what's going on. I'm reluctant to say anything before it becomes officially released. There's no way we'll have a CEV test flight by 2008 now. We have lots of Star Wars (and Trek) fans that work here and thru the agency. None that i know of that post here though. -----signature----- My whole life all I've wanted to do is fly, bomb stuff, shoot people down.
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 2/12/04 1:19pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Well, I think NASA does need a launcher of its own, but if it is to fall onto private companies then so be it. Both would have been nice. I hope you put those Star Trek fans in their places. And speaking of private ventures, the prediction is that the X-Prize will be won this year with almost 30 contestants. Burt Rutan is the 'most likely to succeed' nominee. There is also a predicted 2 billion dollar a year sub-orbital tourism industry that may take place with it, and something they keep calling "The X-Pize Cup" which I have yet to see details for or what the award will be. Maybe I just haven't looked. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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MasterAero Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/12/04 5:28pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	I actually watch Trek but just enjoy it as a show. I like TNG the best. Speaking of that. How fast is warp drive. I once heard its a logarithmic scale. The big thing thats holding up us working on CEV is the new Code T office in D.C. They're not sure what the scope of CEV is yet so they can't really have us work on it yet. Sure does seem like we take 1 step forward and 3 backwards lately. I think Rutan will win, this year. I haven't even heard of anyone else doing any flight tests. -----signature----- My whole life all I've wanted to do is fly, bomb stuff, shoot people down.
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VoijaRisa Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 2/12/04 10:36pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Just thought I'd pass this along: For all of those who are upset about the cancellation of further Hubble servicing missions, there is currently an online petition to try to save it. Anyway, I'm a big fan of astronomy and space exploration (hell, I'm a physics major and astronomy minor). Unfortunately, I can't ever seem find time to read this thread. One day I'll catch up and start contributing more... -----signature----- "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." ~Terry Pratchett
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 2/13/04 2:27pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	I signed the petition. Either keep Hubble going or move the Terrstrial Planet Finder up. Warp Factor: Speed Description ----- ----------- Standard orbit 9600 km/h (SUBLIGHT) Full impulse 0.25c (SUBLIGHT) Warp factor 1 1c-lightspeed Warp factor 2 10c Warp factor 3 39c Warp factor 4 102c Warp factor 5 214c Warp factor 6 352c Warp factor 7 656c Warp factor 8 1024c Warp factor 9 1516c Warp factor 9.2 1649c Warp factor 9.6 1909c Warp factor 9.9 3052c Warp factor 9.99 7902c Warp factor 9.9999 199516c-subspace radio speed Warp factor 10 infinite Note: in the OS Kirk went 'warp 14'. This was changed to fit the TNG scale and is something over warp 9.9. In other news: Okeefe's doubts 2009 Rover Beagle2 investigation Not until next January for the shuttle? I huess it's cheaper in the long run, but at this point why not scrap it, use the Russians to get to the ISS, and just concentrate on the CEV? The 2009 Mars rover is not only bigger, faster, and NUKED, but has an interesting way of landing. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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obi_wan_kanathan Registered: May '01	Date Posted: 2/13/04 6:10pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Other then the ability to start exploring right after landing, what are the benefits of using a skycrane rather then airbags? -----signature----- Dark Lord of the JC \|\| JC/DLC Ambassador ~~The NEW Dark Lords' Council~~ http://www.thedarklordscouncil.com/
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 2/14/04 3:53am Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	A search showed me nothing about the skycrane, the space.com article is the only thing that comes up on the WWW. It seems that the aitbag landing is basically a controlled crash that they want to get away from, but I'm only guessing. Otherwise the airbags seem like a better idea to me, no need to worry about propellants and motors malfunctioning. There is something to be said for a softer landing however. Slight change of subject: NASA Moon Program Moves into Gear By Leonard David Senior Space Writer posted: 10:40 pm ET 13 February 2004 NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland has been given the nod to lead a robotic lunar mission in 2008 -- a key step in President George W. Bush’s recently announced space vision strategy. The lunar reconnaissance orbiter would likely be geared to investigate the potential for water ice trapped at the Moon’s poles. This type of investigation may involve powerful radar to scan the always darkened craters, thought by some scientists to contain bountiful quantities of water ice. Water ice is believed to have been brought to the Moon by impacting comets. Both NASA’s Lunar Prospector and the Pentagon’s Clementine spacecraft offered tantalizing data interpreted by some experts as indicative of water ice deposits. A number of alterative, fast-track approaches are under review at the Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC) to build the lunar orbiter. A newly formed GSFC lunar study team held their first meeting Thursday to begin scoping out how best to move the project forward. Series of robotic lunar missions President Bush has directed NASA to undertake lunar exploration activities to enable sustained human and robotic exploration of Mars and more distant destinations in the solar system. Starting no later than 2008, the Bush plan calls for initiating a series of robotic missions to the Moon to prepare for and support future human exploration activities. A follow-on robotic lunar lander is also slated for 2009. The White House space directive states that the first extended human expedition to the lunar surface could occur as early as 2015, but no later than the year 2020. In reestablishing and reenergizing NASA’s Moon program, the White House envisions lunar exploration activities to further science, and to develop and test new approaches, technologies, and systems, including use of lunar and other space resources, to support sustained human space exploration to Mars and other destinations. In my opinion, Mars gets all the attention. What we have nearby will probably sneak up on people as benefits become clear. If there very little or no water at the Moon's poles there is another way to make rocket fuel out of lunar material. Aluminum is a good lunar material.Atomized aluminum powder, burned with oxygen, makes a good rocket fuel. The Space Shuttle's solid boosters use aluminum powder as fuel. On the Moon, it could become the primary chemical rocket fuel. Really, any Earth/Moon system travel will probably always use chemical rockets. ION, M2P2 ans solar sails are of course more efficeint, but chemical rockets are better for getting around nearby just for higher thrust reasons alone. I'm not sure of the particulars, but the exact type of rocket that the solid boosters consist of are not something that can be made with lunar materials, but the aluminum powder/oxygen mix is sound. ^That is just one example of lunar resources. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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obi_wan_kanathan Registered: May '01	Date Posted: 2/14/04 10:16pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	I did a google search to try and find how rough the rover landings were, but I couldn't find anything useful. However, I found a few good reasons why you wouldn't always want to use airbags. One reason is that using an airbag system is actually heavier then using only rockets, so you limit your payload a lot when you use airbags. And the more obvious problem is that you need to design airbags that can cushion more forces as you increase the weight of the rover. Considering that MSL is 5 times heavier then Spirit or Opportunity, I imagine that these would be serious issues. But I don't think that NASA's moving away from airbags. It sounds like they're considering using them a lot more now that Spirit and Opportunity have landed safely, and may even try landing a rover on the volcano, Apollinaris Patera, with airbags. -----signature----- Dark Lord of the JC \|\| JC/DLC Ambassador ~~The NEW Dark Lords' Council~~ http://www.thedarklordscouncil.com/
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 2/14/04 11:38pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	Oh, good work there. Lighter then. I can think of a few other advantages after a few pages read on airbags. A smart lander that uses rockets does not have to worry about getting caught up on rocks and outcroppings. There is a design for a legged lander that would collapse if it hit uneven terrain, but keep from falling over or rolling downhill so the probe within remains undamaged. Also, the probe would not have to get stuck trying to get deflated airbags out of the way. I found a nice page on the history and future exploration of Mars, as well as the rest of the solar system. The Exploration of the Planets -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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MasterAero Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/17/04 8:04am Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	The Russians say they're designing a new craft: From CNN: MOSCOW, Russia (AP) -- Russian engineers have begun design work on a new spacecraft that would be twice as big and spacious as the existing Soyuz crew capsules, the nation's top space official said Tuesday. The new craft will be able to carry at least six cosmonauts and have a reusable crew section, Russian Aerospace Agency director Yuri Koptev said at a news conference. Soyuz carries three cosmonauts and isn't reusable. The spacecraft, designed by the RKK Energiya company, will have a takeoff weight of 12-14 metric tons (13-15 tons) -- about twice as much as the Soyuz, which was developed in the late 1960s. Energiya has also proposed developing a new booster rocket based on its Soyuz booster to carry the new spacecraft to orbit. Koptev wouldn't say how long it could take to build the spacecraft or how much it would cost, but said that Energiya had done a lot of work on the new vehicle already. "It has already reached a serious project stage while the Americans are only talking about their spacecraft," Koptev said, referring to U.S. plans to build a new spacecraft. U.S. President George W. Bush's plan of returning astronauts to the moon and flying to Mars and beyond envisages phasing out the shuttle in 2010 and building a new spacecraft, called the Crew Exploration Vehicle, which is set to make its first manned mission no later than 2014. Koptev said that his agency was willing to consider possible participation in the planned U.S. moon and Mars missions, but hadn't yet received any formal proposals from NASA. At the same time, he reaffirmed his skepticism about Bush's space plan, saying that the U.S. administration would have trouble raising resources for the planned missions. "There is no explanation whatsoever where the money needed to implement the declared program would come from," Koptev said. He added that more robotic missions to moon and Mars could be useful but sending humans there seemed too costly and inefficient for now. "It's necessary to switch from emotions to pragmatic assessment: how much it would cost, where the money would come from and what we would get from such manned missions," Koptev said. Koptev said that the prospective Russian spacecraft would be intended for orbital flights, not moon missions. He said that Russia and other partners in the 16-nation International Space Station were waiting for the United States to clarify how the orbiting outpost would be run after 2010 when U.S. space shuttles will retire. Koptev said that Russia would be willing to offer its Soyuz spacecraft to ferry astronauts to and from the station after the U.S. shuttles retire, but that would require renegotiating the original documents on the station. Russian Soyuz and Progress spacecraft have served as the only link to the station since the U.S. shuttle fleet was grounded pending investigation into the destruction of the shuttle Columbia during its return to Earth in February 2003. Koptev said that his agency has enough funds to send the two Soyuz and two Progress spacecraft necessary to operate the station this year. He said that Russian and European space officials are currently negotiating the possibility of sending a European astronaut on a six-month mission to the station in a Soyuz. Several European astronauts so far have flown only weeklong missions to the station. -----signature----- My whole life all I've wanted to do is fly, bomb stuff, shoot people down.
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 2/17/04 3:29pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD
	If there is any country that is underrated for their space tech, it's Russia. They beat America to space, have built some awsome boosters, and MIR was up there forever and got some science out of it(They have a reprotadly great exsercise method that counteracts bone and muscle loss but have not shared this). I hate hearing anyone's opinion that maned missions to the Moon and Mars are not a good goal right now. In fact, it should be THE goal, everything else will follow. IN other news: The X-43 scramjet test was delayed to a mishap concerning its booster in a factory accident of some sort. The launch is rescheduled for late March or April. I'll just post the whole other article that caught my eye: Autonomous Spacecraft DART Closes in on Launch Date By Leonard David Senior Space Writer posted: 07:00 am ET 17 February 2004 A NASA-sponsored Demonstration of Autonomous Rendezvous Technology (DART) program is progressing to an in-space experiment later this year. DART is to shake-out the hardware needed for a spacecraft to locate and rendezvous with another spacecraft without direct human guidance. That ability is central to future space initiatives, such as Mars sample return, crew and cargo delivery to the International Space Station, satellite inspection, retrieval, and servicing missions. The DART concept should also provide expertise in de-orbiting the Hubble Space Telescope. Current plans call for a rocket booster to robotically attach to the observatory. That motor would then ignite to precisely dump the observatory into a remote stretch of ocean here on Earth. Orbital Sciences Corporation (OSC) of Dulles, Virginia is leading the DART effort. The work is contracted by NASA’s Space Launch Initiative (SLI) at Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. To be powered into space by OSC’s Pegasus XL air-launched booster, the DART uses an Advanced Video Guidance Sensor to approach and circumnavigate a target satellite. DART is now slated for a mid-October launch from the Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. DART’s target is the 105-pound (48-kilogram), Orbital-built Multiple beam Beyond Line-of-sight Communications (MUBLCOM) satellite, launched back in 1999. The DART spacecraft is to pull up to the target under autonomous control, closing-in within 16 feet (5 meters) of the low Earth orbiting satellite. Only the Russian Space Agency has developed and demonstrated an autonomous spacecraft rendezvous capability, OSC points out. I did not know Russia has already done this, another good mark for them. Instead of using DART to de-orbit Hubble, how about using it to fix the orbit? I must be missing something there, it's too obvious. ^I love space probe tech pics. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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obi_wan_kanathan Registered: May '01	Date Posted: 2/17/04 4:11pm Subject: RE: SPACE SCIENCE THREAD - Date Edited: 2/17/04 4:12pm (1 edits total) Edited By: obi_wan_kanathan
	?:\| That does seem strange. I'd expect it to be just as easy and cheap to boost the Hubble into a stable orbit. -----signature----- Dark Lord of the JC \|\| JC/DLC Ambassador ~~The NEW Dark Lords' Council~~ http://www.thedarklordscouncil.com/
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