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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Mat Skywalker

    Mat Skywalker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2005
    I like what he did with Artemis on Young Justice.
     
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  2. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    @ The Loyal Imperial

    Just trying to have a conversation here. What you ask would be impossible for me to accomplish, so no I have not.

    If you feel that women are being shunned away from fan conventions and looked down upon by the vast majority of male "geeks" then I disagree. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more female attendees of conventions than male ones at this point. I talk to hundreds of women each year that love coming out to fan conventions.

    As well in the community I live in the local gay/lesbian community is very active as attendees, organizers and exhibitors. Fan groups which are known to be largely gay & lesbian are specifically invited to events(alongside other local fan groups) and given space for their fan clubs in exchange for their support of the convention. We get roughly 25,000 attendees each year.

    But then I'm just speaking of my own experiences as a male at these events, as has been pointed out by The Loyal Imperial.

    Though I will note that I do attend the conventions with female friends and family. No one has ever mentioned to me how they feel excluded at these events, or how these events make them feel uncomfortable, so on, so forth. I'm sure there are women who have attended these events who had bad experiences, but that goes back to the one bad apple spoiling the batch approach.

    I just don't think the condemnation of the entire fandom is that called for, certainly not based on my experiences. But then everyones experiences will vary I'm sure.
     
  3. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    I admit I'm not qualified to characterize the convention experience personally, but this piece about SDCC says a lot.
     
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  4. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Experiences do vary, and I'm primarily guided by what my own friends have told me about their experiences at cons.

    As far as the fan service bit, I think the important distinction is that the stuff they were talking about with Sabine was gendered. Somebody might think bounty hunters are fan service... because they're bounty hunters. You might argue that they're the same, but they're not. There's a reason gender is a protected class and occupation is not.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  5. Skaddix

    Skaddix Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2012
    That is kinda absurd. Bounty Hunters especially Mandos are basically a pillar of Star Wars at this point
     
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  6. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    I've never been to SDCC, but I'm not sure that the article touches what I'm getting at. It spends a lot of time talking about how their are limited opportunities in Hollywood for women, I'm sure that is accurate.

    But it also talked about how dominate franchises like Twilight & Hunger Games were at the convention, how there was a panel call "Women kick ass" right after the Hunger Games stuff - this is what I'm looking at more. Yes, as the article points out there were some jerks at the panel, and people critical of Twilight(a franchise I have heard many women being very critical of) - that is unfortunate. I guess a better question would be if those fans who say Twilight ruined comic con the previous year ruined the event for Twilight fans in general?

    I've been to a few conventions with Twilight guests & panels and have heard very limited complaints. At smaller conventions I've found that some people always complain about the guests on some level, because guests of one franchise don't interest another. The thing that makes the conventions excellent in my opinion is the something for everyone approach.

    SDCC might not be the best example of what I'm referencing, despite it being the father of the genre so to speak, as it does have the reputation of being an industry showcase at this point as opposed to a fan convention.

    For instance let me toss this link in: http://baltimoregaylife.com/back-issues/item/892-otakon-2013

    While not as informative or long winded as the SDCC article it gives you an idea of how such events are viewed in the exact communities this thread stands up for.

    Also this: http://www.bilerico.com/2011/07/gays_still_dominate_comic_con.php

    It is even a better look as it focuses specifically on all the LGBT activities that take place at an event like SDCC. I think if we are going to talk about "Fandom" we have to include these fan conventions as they are the largest single gatherings of fans that there are. If there are problems they should be addressed(such as what Cosplay Is Not Consent addresses), but I think it is also pretty fair to point at the many positive things that these events offer, how they seem to be very inclusive of people regardless of their differences.

    I dunno, I heard a lot about how a Mandalorian with a lightsaber was fan service when those season 2 spoilers first hit. But as Jello points out there could be a difference from a "gender protected class" to Mandalorians.

    But I still don't think that not liking a character for reasons of her more feminine traits being played up automatically equals sexism.
     
  7. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Ehh...are we all using the same meaning of "fan service"? Because a Mando with a lightsaber isn't fan service unless she's bending over to show her panties...at least per my, possibly outdated, knowledge of the meaning of that term. And as a long time anime fan (lapsed due to lack of time), I've only ever encountered that version of the phrase.
     
  8. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It can be used to simply mean pandering, or it can be used in the specific context of showing something sexy just to please the fans. But for this discussion, Rob was clearly using the term in a broader sense.

    Which would be part of the argument that bounty hunters are hugely over represented in SW because they're "cool." :p


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  9. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004
    It's entirely possible to not like her based on what we've seen, I guess, but whenever people have put their objections to words they're revealed their objections are based on assumptions, generalizations, and points that would be hard to believe would be at issue were this a male character.

    Having read responses to Sabine on this very forum many of the reactions were absolutely solely based on what Mike and Mia are talking about, and there was some very problematic language used in regards to her. I haven't heard or seen a decent critique of her that hasn't been crouched in sexists or questionable terms or at the very least makes some giant leaps based on what little we know about her. The idea that she's a Mary Sue or just the cute manic pixie girl or anime fan bait or...and I hadn't seen this before Mia pointed it out...a Suicide Girl for having purple hair is ridiculous.

    She seems, by what little I've seen, to be exactly the kind of character that SW needs, and most of the criticism I've seen has been extrapolation based upon the sort of assumptions and generalizations about teen girls that Mia mentioned. At the very least some, if not many, of the objections seem to run counter to what we already know about the character. However, much of the discussion over the gender and ethnic make-up of the crew of the ship has been cringe-worthy, so it isn't strictly confined to just Sabine, but for the purpose of what Mike and Mia are talking about; I think they're right on.

    As far as conventions go; the rise of girls and women going to cons has been met with howls of anger over fanboys feeling their space is being invaded, claims of geek girls, and assaults and intimidation of women at said cons. Just reading about and talking to the experience women have had going to comic books stores is enough to be shocked that women still attend and attempt to engage with the greater fandom despite their experiences.

    I'd recommend reading Harris O'Malley aka Dr Nerdlove's pieces on women and conventions/comic shops (and the way "Nice Guys" react to women in their space) that he's run on Kotaku and his own site, because Harris pretty much nails it, and as I said to him it's fascinating seeing the reaction on the largely male dominated Kotaku site vs his own site which has a higher than average ratio of females commenting than average likely because his site is a much more comfortable and safer space for them to discuss these things. There's plenty of articles written from women first-hand about their experiences at cons, and the usual response by far too many males is to minimize said experience or put the blame for any negative interactions on the girl for everything from daring to be there in the first place to their choice in clothing to the idea that "obviously" they're overreacting.

    Having accompanied women at cons dressed as everything from Mandalorians to Slave Leias to business attire, it's pretty shocking the amount of crap they get, from unwanted touching to people shouting some pretty vile crap the Nerd Inquisition trying to ferret out fake geeks.
     
  10. Erik_B

    Erik_B Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2014
    When you are already at a science fiction convention, it is kind of hard to think where further outside of mainstream society you need to haul your sorry carcass so it doesn't offend anyone with its presence.

    Nerds aren't cool man. We established this.
     
  11. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004

    Nerd culture is the mainstream now. I think we're past the point where the entertainment you consume is what's making a person "uncool", whatever that is.

    ETA: and it's not like there haven't always been women/girls who've existed well past the buoy markers of the mainstream for ages. We're just in an age when it's not quite so shocking to anyone but the males who're defending certain things like conventions and video game to be girl cootie free zones, even though they never have been in the past, it was usually just that they were less visible because they had the joy of being looked down upon by both the so-called mainstream and by their cultural niche.
     
  12. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    While the definition is in flux, I don't think superheroes and SF will stay in their position of being mainstream stories. Rather, they're the latest thing to latch onto for Hollywood but it'll pass.
     
  13. Mat Skywalker

    Mat Skywalker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2005
    I kinda see superhero movies as the logical evolution of action movies.
     
  14. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Like all trends, the superhero one will end, probably with a couple of big, high-profile clunkers. I don't see that befalling Marvel's output, but it will if they don't know when to stop - which I think they do i.e. Avengers 3.

    Meanwhile an essential article for this thread:
    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=51832
     
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  15. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004

    Superheroes =/= all comics, as the article from CBR points out, and this year has seen an explosion of great non-superhero comics from some of the very names in that article. There's also loads of non-superhero stories lifted from comics by Hollywood, they're just not always identified as having their basis in comics, but with the rise of things like SDCC becoming more of a pop-culture happening that's covered on national and world-wide news, that's certainly changing. Next to that you have cosplay and trooping entering the mainstream, or at least being known by the mainstream, and then you have the increasing average age of most gamers as well as the large amounts of females driving and entering the video game market and the dam has pretty well burst.

    I agree that right now superheroes are the easy go-to for Hollywood, but I don't see science fiction or movies inspired by "nerd" media going away anytime soon, even if there is a move away from superheroes.

    ARROW was specifically sold as not being a superhero show (and up until the Flash could still hold that title) but there's no denying where the show's roots are.
     
  16. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Don't think I claimed that superheroes = comics Patch, that'd be very unlike me!

    The other seam being mined quite a bit is the young adult fiction one - Twilight, Hunger Games, Divergent.

    What's interesting to note is none of this stuff is all that easy to do, it requires serious amounts of money. That it's drawing on an established property with a built-in fanbase may well be a large part of what green lights what would otherwise be a serious gamble.
     
  17. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004

    Sorry, didn't mean to make it sound like you were arguing comics were only superheroes, that's why I pointed out you'd already posted an article talking about that very fact!

    I think there's an enormous sea-change going on in comics, but I also think the issue with Hollywood (and, again, this touches on something you already brought up) and that's the cost of what's been called the "tent pole" movies, which at the moment are superheroes and YA SF/F.

    There's already been a lot of talk about how the tent pole movie has taken serious hits, but at the same time the overseas markets have opened up. 3D is in HUGE demand in China, which is why it's so ubiquitous even though American audiences seem lukewarm to it.

    So, there's a lot of stuff going on, but the whole "nerd culture" thing is a genie I don't see going back in the bottle.
     
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  18. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Well my only reason for posting the link was with the inclusion aspect in mind. Moving on, as it's not a thing....(and yes we could end up going in a Bendis-esque back and forth if you like, but it wouldn't be all that interesting. ;) )

    Do you think it'll retain that label at all Patch? I'm thinking perhaps not and then, give it say a decade, there'll be new alternatives in the space vacated so to speak, not that I've any ideas as to what they would be.

    Oh, I can blame 3D on China? Well, it's academic as I've ceased cinema-going.
     
  19. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004

    I don't think we'll retain the label long at all. I think it's already past the sell-by date.

    The existence of Hot Topic alone...and networks on Cable and game systems dedicated not just to anime but first run anime from Japan being legally broadcast a week after the episode drops in Japan? Comic book conventions becoming multi-media events instead of glorified swap meets? Cosplayers flooding parades like the Rose Bowl and others? Captain America shirts being sold at Target? The fact that so-called "nerd" or "geek" centered podcasts and video channels are becoming media empires?

    The distinction/label is pretty much meaningless and the only ones I see using it are an aging generation (TBF, it's a generation that I'd fit into) who held that as a badge of self-identification for so long they don't know what to do...and I have some sympathy, because in a very short time we went from being outcasts who watched third-gen VHS tapes of fandubbed anime and suffered through the usual "Biff! Pow! Comics aren't just for kids!" articles when the mainstream press stumbled over us, but those days are gone, baby, gone.

    And despite the fact that part of this owes itself to everything being a commodity in our new culture, and ideas and hashtags can be packaged and sold as easily as real products, and maybe that guy in the Captain America shirt only knows Steve Rodgers from the movies and doesn't love him like we do, dammit, it's still a good thing, because we don't have to huddle around third-gen VHS tapes anymore and the next generation will get the benefits of the nerd wall coming down...at least that's my thoughts.
     
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  20. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I like the sound of that! One of the areas that's been most fun to explore for me over the last few years, as more translated material has become available, are the various Franco-Belgian comics. I really want more people to be aware of the likes of The Scorpion series. At the same time 2000AD has some really strong material that deserves a bigger audience, none more so than that in my sig!
     
  21. Rebecca_Daniels

    Rebecca_Daniels Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2006

    Not to interrupt your lovely hopes for the future, but I just wanted to say that this isn't true in my experience. I'm working on getting into game design and I've spoken to a lot of people in the industry (vast majority straight white men) and especially in larger companies (like a certain publisher that has all the SW rights, hmm...) the number of women working there is pretty minimal, and those that are there are rarely in positions with any creative control. One designer who worked in several of the larger companies said that in all his years in the game industry he's met exactly one female game designer, though he knew more female artists, scripters, engineers, etc. All of the people I've spoken to were pretty honest: being female makes getting into and staying in the industry a lot harder. On the bright side, smaller companies seem to have a slightly better showing. More women in positions of creative control - though all games are still constrained by time/money/franchise rules/whatever else, but that's totally normal.

    More women are buying and playing video games now than ever, but a lot of publishers don't recognise that either. A certain large publisher that we're all familiar with has cancelled or changed multiple games with female protagonists before they ever made it out of the concept stage. There's more, but I'm not allowed to share it; in short, it gets worse from there. A lot of it comes from marketing departments who are still stuck on "straight white male" as their main demographic, which doesn't reflect the actual makeup of gamers today.

    Maybe in other regions or companies that I haven't spoken to anyone in it's different; I don't pretend to know it all, just not liking the trends in the knowledge I'm accumulating about the video game industry.
     
  22. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    A few pages behind here, but Dalien Brock is a POC? I didn't know this.
     
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  23. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004

    Absolutely, and that's the depressing part of things which extends somewhat into other media like comic books, but games and software programming still have a lot of barriers to the entry of women and minorities. I forget the hashtag, but there was just a very good groundswell of articles and women in and trying to enter the industry who spoke to their experiences and the often toxic environments they encountered despite the irrefutable data showing the massive chunk of female gamers. I'm not completely wearing rainbow glasses on this, and the sad part is that it IS a massive leap forward (in the same way that my experience of the Big Gay Dinner at SDCC has changed as LGBTQ people became more active and vocal in the community), but to say there's still a long, long, long way to go is an understatement.

    I do think we've slowly chipped away at the idea that anything other than the Cis white male 18-32 matters when considering what and how to sell products, but just because that's been recognized, it certainly doesn't mean I'm suggesting hanging the "Mission Accomplished" banner anytime soon.

    I hope you can see where I was coming from and I didn't mean to minimize the issues those cultures and industries face moving forward. We're not all singing kumbaya yet.
     
  24. Rebecca_Daniels

    Rebecca_Daniels Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2006

    I do understand what you were saying, I just thought I'd add in what I'm being told as part of the "next generation" of game designers, and what I'm being told sounds exactly like what's been going on for the last... I don't even know. Decade at least. EA is particularly disgusting, as I've learned, but even those that claim to be trying harder don't back it up except in what end up looking like press stunts. Some of the people taking the game design classes I am are the exact sort of people that create those toxic environments in gaming and they have a more legitimate chance of getting into the industry than I do simply because they're male, and that kind of sickens and disheartens me.

    I think what confuses me about people starting to get that there's more demographics of gamers is that the companies won't seem to accept it, even though I'd think that would be important when trying to increase sales. But I don't pretend to understand businesses at all.

    Anyway, I'm not very good at talking about this stuff which is mostly why I just read and like posts. You all say it better than I can, so I'll head back to working on my game.
     
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  25. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    ...Holy self-demonstrating post, Batman!

    Moving on from that, I do think it's an interesting question how much the death of the "nerd closet" has affected and will affect efforts to combat this sort of latent fandom misogyny. The entertainment industry tends to lag behind on these issues, but I think there probably is hope that simple generational turnover is going to have a major positive impact here.
     
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