Lit Beyond the big two: lesser Force traditions in the GFFA

Iron_lord Well even if he doesn't fully know everything about Anakin (And I think ANH and him worrying about Luke turning out like his father implies he knows the gist) that passage makes it clear he's at least aware of one of his earliest atrocities, and that along with the aftermath, it's shaped how he views all Jedi, with Obi-Wan going out of his way to outright note that not all Jedi act like that. However, Owen never met Qui-Gon, he's only met Anakin, and his only experience with him in person is Anakin going on a murderous rampage. Now years later he hears about a Jedi leading the Sand People doing the same, and instantly connects it with his actual memories of Anakin.

This is different than if he'd never met a Jedi, only knew they had crazy powers, and distrusted anyone or anything with said crazy powers.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-Jedi_sentiment

 

Yep. We see time and again that the Jedi are actively distrusted by a variety of people, yet I think the majority of the time those people do so for similar reasons to Owen: Whatever experiences they've had with the Jedi haven't been good, rather than never having met one and distrusting all Jedi because they have powers others don't. I in fact think that writers in the past have done a solid job at showing just how easy it could be for people to hate and distrust the Jedi.

Opinions are shaped by experiences after all, and if the only Jedi you met/knew of were Darth Caedus or Jorus C'baoth, you'd have a fairly low opinion of them as well. I also think that people/beings have a natural tendency to remember the bad over the good, which is why despite all Luke's done (did) for the galaxy, Jedi were still being distrusted up until the very end of the EU, and what's more I believe it's been pointed out that many don't separate Jedi from Sith, or any other Force User, meaning that whatever bad one Force User has done falls on the shoulders of the others.

 

People fear what they do not understand. The average person isn't a force user. The ignorance and fear of the force is understandable for the average Joe.

 

There is some truth in this but people can just as easy, if not easier, find what they don't understand fascinating. A god example are the natives in North America: when they first meat Europeans they did not understand iron & steel items, gunpowder or the other new things the saw. This did not stop them from using those items and wanting more.

I think part of the problem is that many EU authors depict many cultures in SW very like their own sceptical western culture.

There also seems to be a long running trend to have the jedi - since the only lesser tradition I have seen actually used are the witches of Dathomir I can not comment on those - being distrusted by the government and/or the public.

Also on the subject on Jedi distrust we have to remember that there also have been many people who have shown the jedi respect and trust.

So any other thoughts about the Force adept, spirit adept and/or urban adept and/or my comments beside the possible and not well defined prejudice and persecution they could meet?

 

I might be sounding like Daala here, but I figure the Jedi are also distrusted because of their status in power. Remember, they're being (I assume, can't confirm) funded by taxpayers' money, and the only ones that ever see them are very few people. The ones that benefit from them are even fewer. And at the same time, they police themselves, they aren't accountable to the Republic/New Republic/Galactic Alliance government, so when cases like Caedus turning the GA into his personal fiefdom and Kyp Durron blowing up Carida happen, I can understand why the Jedi wouldn't exactly be seen in a good light.

Yes, they could claim effects of the dark side etc but the common people aren't going to care. They're going to want their elected representatives, corrupt or not, to take a good look into the Jedi Order and see just what's going on. Yes, the Jedi most of the time do good for the Galaxy but that doesn't affect the small people as much as the Sith/Ex-Jedi affect them. It affects them when one ex-Jedi decides to blow up or bomb a planet because of some family issue though.

I figure that non-aligned Force Users would have to make an effort to prove that they're neither Jedi nor Sith for the population to trust them somewhat. Imperial Knights probably have the easiest time doing this, seeing as they're directly a part of and accountable to the Imperial government. They're like the Secret Service with Force Powers, whereas the Jedi would be somewhat like the Watchmen from.. Watchmen.

 

Of course they are funded by taxpayers' money, they are a government organisation.

Just wondering, were is that stated?

So you mean the countless wars and -

that the Jedi stopped did not affect the small people?

SO on one hand you say that normal people seldom see or really hear about the Jedi and on the other hand know so much about the Force so the ecological priests of Ithor, travelling Dathomir witch, sorcerer of Tund have to explain to other that they are not jedi or sith?

Personally I don't see the comparison.

 

In TCW's The Wrong Jedi, it's clear that under normal circumstances, Ahsoka would be tried by the Jedi Order - and it's only the fact that clonetroopers have died, that allows Tarkin to press for her expulsion so the Republic can try her.

 

Have to move forward with viewing my TCW collection, I have not seen that episode jet.

 

Examples of EU post-ROTJ Jedi self-policing - Luke's pardon of Kyp for the acts committed under Exar Kun's influence (Mon Mothma had already said "Let the Jedi Master decide his fate") and probably a few other cases as well - Zekk maybe?

 

See Iron Lord for the one about accountability. Kyp Durron also wasn't tried by the New Republic, the NJO just said 'he's redeemed now'.

As to the countless wars, the more devastating ones were started up by Jedi converts. The Mandalorians were stopped by rogue Jedi working under the structure of the Republic government. So there was accountability in that case, and they didn't follow the Council. Even with all of that in mind, the Jedi hero who stopped them ended up being as bad as them to the Republic. BUT, at the same time Mace Windu saved Coruscant by stopping the Nightsisters - something which the Jedi themselves didn't provoke. So what I'm saying is it isn't all black and white, but in the end there are plenty of reasons for the people to distrust Jedi.

One which isn't accountable to the said government? Sure, politicians are corrupt, but Jedi have proven to be corrupt too. They just get called Sith most of the time when they're corrupted.

Nope. It's just that the most the common folk would've heard of Force Users would be Jedi and Sith, and after the Ruusan Reformation it'd just be Jedi. Remember that 'Jedi' and 'Force User' are often interchangeably used by people.

Jedi being unaccountable to the government and basically being government-sancitoned vigilantes, while the Imperial Knights directly serve it's interests.

 

We're missing the elephant in the room which is once again Caedus. Instead of being tried by a joint Alliance/Imperial/Confederation court along with his Moff buddies and Tahiri (who actually was rightfully tried), he was outright executed by the Jedi. There were plenty of reasons to lock him up for good, such as subverting democratic process, bombing Kashyyyk, trapping the Jedi, having Pellaeon killed and I'm definitely missing alot more.

At the same time Luke Skywalker basically ends up appointing the leaders of the Empire and the Alliance post-war. I really don't see how people are gonna be alright with that. No elections, nothing, they just end up appointing a former war criminal and a nobody in the Empire as the respective GA and Imperial leaders.

 

The problem is capturing him. They tried that before and the head of the capture team, Kyle Katarn, ended up with a lightsaber through him.

 

I'm fairly certain that had the Alliance not been in shambles, they would've also sent a team after Caedus (In collaboration with the Jedi), and that the main goal with a person so dangerous (As Iron_lord points out capture was attempted and had failed already) still would've been to end the threat, with killing being allowed, and capture being a secondary goal at best. There's really no way to say what would've happened to Caedus had he been captured. Given what happened to Tahiri however, i'd say it's fairly obvious he would've been tried by more than just the Jedi.

 

I've always wondered why they didn't try YVH Droids with internal ysalamiri.

 

lol ysalamiri

 

Luke Skywalker, Jaina Solo, and Corran Horn. Put them together. Throw them in the Anakin Solo with the aforementioned ysalamiri-armed YVH droids. Boom. Insta-capture.

 

The EU spent like fifteen years building up all sorts of anti-Jedi measures that could have been used. Like cortosis and phrik plated YVH droids with Ysalamiri harnesses and Taozin hide shields wielding electrostaves.

 

Maybe Caedus was such a threat, such a political genius and Force powerhouse (Legends say he was hailed as the second coming of Darth Sidious) that the writers knew that they couldn't have the heroes use any of those measures and expect them to work against someone as skilled as him.

 

I actually came up with a pretty good reason for why Ysalamiri wouldn't work but it's not at all supported by the text and purely out of my own extrapolations of the New Jedi Order series. But I don't want to do their work for them.

 

Electrostaves are made of phrik, you should have included some combination of Mandaloran iron, vonduun crab armor, amphistaffs, and Universal Energy Cages instead.

 

can't have NJO stuff unless it fits the agenda though using yuuzhan vong technology is something caedus would do because it's intrinsically evil and it made jacen evil and infected him, i mean look at tahiri she became his apprentice because she was tainted by the NJO too

the universal energy cage would have worked

Based on the metaphysics expounded by TCW, the Force consists of two parts: the Living Force generated by life forms, and the wellspring the Cosmic/Unifying Force which flows through the life forms through the midi-chlorians. Presumably on a technical level the Yuuzhan Vong don't generate Living Force which is why they cannot be sensed in the Force -- my earlier speculations being that their Living Force in the symbiotic ecosystem on their home planet resulted in the emergent property of Yuuzhan'tar, with Sekot similarly being produced by the Living Force on the planet Zonama, and the disruption of that symbiosis killed Yuuzhan'tar and their Living Force generation was disrupted by the destruction of the system -- but they still are connected to the Unifying/Cosmic Force, which is kind of the point of the title of the novel among other things. Presumably, the Vongsense is either this Unifying/Cosmic Force (unlikely), or some trace vestige of the Living Force that they still do emanate.

The Ysalamiri likewise are supposed to somehow "diminish" the omnipresent Force as a quantity, so that it is severely lessened in "quantity" in the locality of the Force bubble to such an extent that it is imperceptible to a Jedi -- just like the potential vestige that is Vongsense.

tl;dr have Caedus "weaponize" Vongsense and be able to use it under the influence of the Ysalamiri. Or just use the damn Cosmic Force itself.

I guess the reason why this never happened though is because metaphysics makes Shelly Shapiro and Troy Denning's heads hurt and it's not the Force that was in The Empire Strikes Back. Yoda didn't say nothing 'bout no Cosmic Force. Alternatively the only reason why the Yuuzhan Vong would ever get mentioned in LOTF is either to kill off/erase more important stuff from NJO like that pesky World Brain or to further impugn it -- the Embrace of Pain Jacen was in made him evil and so he's going to use it to indoctrinate Ben because that fits.

 

I thought Tahiri became evil because she missed her high school boyfriend. Post-NJO forgot that she was ever Shaped.

 

so I guess even if it fits the agenda it's still not going to get mentioned most of the time

The important things to take away from the NJO are:

Jacen was TORTURED by Vergere which made him intensely loyal to her for some reason and it was Sith training somehow, and...? There I just saved you from reading 19 books that were published over five years. No reason to read them. Continuity.

Oh yeah Jacen's younger brother died in the war too and he was the bestest Jedi ever and if he didn't die then everything would be great.

 

I don't like to be cynical but you pretty much summed up post NJO.