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Senate "Race" Relations (was "U.S. Society and Black Men")

Discussion in 'Community' started by Jedi Merkurian , Aug 11, 2014.

  1. AaylaSecurOWNED

    AaylaSecurOWNED Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2005
    Pretty much what Brian is saying. The concepts are definitely used as tactics and exploited by people who claim to be arguing in the interest of social justice - and like I said before, Mike has a tendency to do that. Still doesn't negate the fact that people in minority groups can suffer from internalized prejudice.

    Right, and now it's just going to become a semantic argument. Does "racism" mean hatred of black people or blackness? Or does it mean pervasive and systemic negative prejudices and biases instilled by society at large, which may not necessarily imply any kind of conscious or intentional negative feeling? If you get hung up on "racism" meaning "people who hate minority races" or "people who say the n-word non-jokingly" then yeah, the argument's over right then.
     
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  2. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    No need to be a thread nazi, Dani.

    Now the thread's over.
     
  3. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    The semantics are very important, otherwise people will get confused about what is said. When someone like Spike Lee says that "Black people can't be racist, we don't have the power"' that sounds either completely delusional or like self-serving racist lie to many white people, especially whites who have been on the receiving end of discrimination from blacks. When people conflate racism and discrimination, they misunderstand what Spike Lee was saying. This makes it very difficult for them to take anything else he says seriously.

    Saying simply that a black cop is racist who has more suspicion and fear of young black men which then leads him to kill one unjustly in his function as a police officer is confusing. Does it mean he is a self-hating Uncle Tom? Does it mean that he is an accidental perpetrator of systemic racism? Does it mean something else? The word racism has a lot of implications, not all of which are meant by the speakers, and not all of which are understood by the listeners. It seemed that there might have been some confusion in the thread which is why I volunteered my understanding, as a different perspective can sometimes clarify situations, even thought it amounts to two people saying essentially the same thing.
     
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  4. vin

    vin Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 1999
    U.S. Society v Black Men
    Dawn of Injustice
     
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Kyriarchy -- now that's an interesting term. Had to google what it means in context, since the straight etymology doesn't tell me much at all. Looks like it's an attempt to be more all-encompassing than patriarchy, so it basically stands in for society or the established order as a whole.

    I'm still not a fan of either term, mostly because I think it ascribes a false agency and common interest to an interlocking combination of customs, beliefs, and structures. But you need a common lexicon to even have a conversation, so it doesn't bother me too much I guess.

    Still. New word today. :p
     
  6. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    This is well back now, but at the same time, I want to respond to it:

    That's why I'm a bit surprised Merk would create this post so quickly. There are literally no facts known about the second situation. There's probably not going to be any kind of honest discussion here at all.


    What you actually mean is, "There's probably not going to be any discussion that doesn't favor what I think about guns and gun ownership."
     
  7. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Actually we've been getting on pretty well. ..
     
  8. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    That's farther from the truth KW, and not accurate at all.

    First off, what does guns and gun ownership have to do with anything? Secondly, when Merk first posted, 2 agencies just started to shift through the information. Good cops don't have to fear an investigation, despite what the media frenzy is or isn't. But no one knows anything about what happened. If this officer was in the wrong, then he is in the wrong and should get punished. If this officer was reacting to a valid situation, then it's not enough to say "Ooooh. Cop shoots black man. He must be racist." And everyone should settle down.

    Because information gets manipulated on both sides. At first, the Wal Mart guy was supposedly shot because "he was black and holding a toy.." No, that's not what happened at all. He was an idiot, because idiocy is color-blind. He was shot because he though it would be a good idea to take the most realistic pellet gun ever and start pretend shooting strangers in a Wal Mart. That's quite a difference, eh? My point is that people should wait until information comes out. Is that what you meant by your above post?

    Because what's tragic about the Wal Mart instance is that the lesson that should be learned is overshadowed. Be respectful with guns because they're a responsibility. In other words, just act normal. Instead, it will all be dismissed as racism, because black men can't walk around fake shooting people. Except anyone, of any color who did that exact same thing would probably end up the same way. That's the tragedy.

    But otherwise, thanks for non-posting while managing to throw some words up on the screen. That was 30 cents of electricity well spent.
     
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  9. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
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  10. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Edit: Nevermind.

    Sorry for the incendiary post, but at the same time, I continue to be irritated (as I always have been) with your fixation on the small details of things, 44. Sometimes it would be good to look at the big picture.
     
  11. AaylaSecurOWNED

    AaylaSecurOWNED Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2005
    Oh yeah, while we're going back and responding to nonsense Mr44 posts...

    Conflating protesters with rioters/looters is absurd. The riots grew out of the protests and were a response to the absolutely absurd overmilitarized reaction of the police to what were initially peaceful protests. That does not mean that this guy is "a guy who is protesting a police shooting." Peaceful protests are not and will never be the same as a riot, no matter how much you want to spin the story.

    THESE are people protesting the police shooting:

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    What did the looters grow out of?

    Also OZK: No Daily Mail please
     
  13. AaylaSecurOWNED

    AaylaSecurOWNED Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2005
  14. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    This is true if you mean as compared to women or Asian men, but by far, the group that causes the most violence to black men is overwhelmingly black men.

    Which armed person does a white man have the most reason to fear, statistically? Himself.

    Which armed person does a black man have the most reason to fear, statistically? Another black man.

    The police homicide rate for black men is about 15 per million annually. That's the same as the white gun homicide rate nationally - pretty scary stuff. As a black man, you're as likely to be killed by a police officer (black or white) as a white person is to be shot and killed by anyone.
     
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  15. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    You're not hostile at all...
     
  16. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    That, at least, is the current narrative, mostly on the basis of the 911 call from Ronald Ritchie, which was released to the press. However, there are at least a few troublesome aspects about that call, suggesting that Ritchie heavily overstated or embellished John Crawford III's actions.

    For example, in the call Ritchie said that he and his wife tailed Crawford through the store, describing his actions and trying to quietly motion people away from Crawford. However, Ritchie's wife (April) had broken her ankle and was riding in a scooter. I don't know about you, but if I think that there is some maniac running around with a gun, I'm not going to let my injured wife follow him in a scooter. I'm going to get her as far away from the threat as I can. Combine that with Crawford being obviously on the phone (according to Ritchie's account) and much of the story becomes less probable as described.

    Combine that with some anti-gun individuals advocating people call the police and falsely claim "shots fired" any time they see someone with a firearm, and there are a lot of questions that need to be answered. (For example, according to Ritchie's account, Crawford was still on the phone when the police ordered him to drop the gun with his back facing the police, and was then shot as he turned around. If he was holding the phone in one hand and the rifle in the other, then it's unlikely that he could have easily pointed the gun at the officers very easily, and it would heavily depend on how he was holding the gun.) Initial reports are often wrong. (For example, there was a Phoenix-area doctor arrested at an airport for allegedly threatening some people with an openly-carried rifle. All charges were dropped after security video showed that he never pointed the gun at anyone, and the security guards solicited the complains against the doctor.)

    There's simply not enough reliable information to make any determinations one way or the other. Could Crawford have been acting foolishly and did he disobey the police orders? It's possible. Did Ritchie give bad information to the 911 dispatcher? I'd say likely (which means that unless there are corroborating eye-witness accounts of Crawford pointing the gun at people, I'm disinclined to accept that claim at face value.) Did the police potentially jump the gun in shooting Crawford as he was turning around? Again, it's possible.

    We simply can't say one way or the other with the information we have now.
     
  17. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    That reminds me: have you heard about the Twitter campaign #IfTheyGunnedMeDown
     
  18. AaylaSecurOWNED

    AaylaSecurOWNED Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2005
    I spent a while scrolling through that tag on Sunday night, Merk. Rough to read and to think about.
     
  19. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Well, here's the thing. On one hand, people call for professionalism. This is a good thing. On the other, the "public" (there is a difference) reacts with little or no information at all. There are no "small details" for this incident yet. If I was promoting an opinion that the police are always right as much as you're promoting one that they are always wrong, you might have a point. But I'm not. No one can. No one has any information. It's just as realistic that this incident is as justified as it is unjustified, because no one else besides the people involved were there. The problem for me is that you haven't commented on any of the examples here, except to seemingly say "don't focus on the actual details, 44...just go with the conjecture." Do think the FBI is going to show up as an outside eye and not look at the facts? That they're just going to say "Oh, well, the public is upset, so we'll just determine that the cop was guilty and go home." Of course not. Even though a mob mentality exists for the public, the facts are going to control this specific incident.

    Again, the big picture takes many forms. Going back to the Wal Mart shooting, the "big picture" is that why someone who is 22 years old would think it is a good idea to walk around Wal Mart pointing a gun at people? What breakdown occurred in his development that he wasn't aware of the consequences of his actions? Or just didn't care? That's the big picture. Not that police responded to a Wal Mart after being called no less than 4 times by people reporting a man pointing a rifle at people, and because he happened to be black, everyone involved was racist.

    Similar details exist for every incident out there. Cops just don't randomly walk around shooting people. All the incidents have some sort of context. Responses from the police can be just as improper as responses from the people involved, which is why the details are important.
     
  20. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    However, it is predictable and unfortunate that these young men will likely be depicted as "Scary Black Men."

    EDIT AaylaSecurOWNED
     
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  21. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Whats your point?
     
  22. MistrX

    MistrX Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2006

    You could do a thesis on that using only the Trayvon Martin case. It's not hard to read into the agendas of some media outlets when one will use a picture like this:

    [​IMG]

    while others were going with these:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    and perhaps the most famous

    [​IMG]

    A big part of me wishes media outlets would use images like the first for both the perpetrators and the victims of every crime. Perhaps without some initial negative impression, more would be open to listening to the facts of situations and making a judgement based on the information we have. If we're truly supposed to have a system of innocent until proven guilty, having sympathy for both parties in any crime is the place to start.
     
  23. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    So, collected data from the CDC's crime report using 2011 data via Huffington Post:

    National homicide victimization rate: 4.7 per 100,000 in 2011
    National white homicide victimization rate: 2.64 per 100,000 in 2011
    National white male homicide victimization rate: 3.85 per 100,000 in 2011
    National black male homicide by police rate: 1.4 per 100,000

    Basically, as a white man, my likelihood of being a victim of homicide is about three times that of a black man's chances of being killed ONLY BY POLICE.

    Wow.


    *According to the statistic going around that a black male is killed by police every 28 hours, 313 deaths in a year, black male population of 22.5 million in 2013.
     
  24. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Of the post or in general?
     
  25. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Dani mentioned both looters and rioters in her post but then only spoke about where the rioters came from. Maybe she forgot part 2?I know I've done that before.

    Why're you so damn hostile?