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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate "Race" Relations (was "U.S. Society and Black Men")

Discussion in 'Community' started by Jedi Merkurian , Aug 11, 2014.

  1. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Going back to the OP, why would a bunch of guys think it is a good idea to wander around Target, Home Depot and Chipotle with assault rifles?
     
  2. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    I'm not being hostile, I had no idea what your point was. I figured that ASO had molded the rioters and looters into one in her post.

    Why are you accusing both her and I of being hostile?
     
    AaylaSecurOWNED likes this.
  3. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Just want to say that I edited out my one post for a reason, which is that I thought better of part of it and just prefer not to get into other things here. I'll leave it to others.
     
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  4. AaylaSecurOWNED

    AaylaSecurOWNED Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2005
    So Vivec, the strategy is to make an utterly unproductive pedantic post, then when I don't take the bait, call me hostile, then when someone who is so confused by your excessive pedantry that he doesn't even understand it sincerely asks what your post meant, you call HIM hostile. Great! Good posting. This is definitely the Vivec we've all come to know and respect over the years.

    Yeah, I was thinking it takes a measure of bravery for all of them to post the 'negative' pictures that they're putting beside the good pictures. It struck me in a way it hadn't really before how this Scary Black Man stereotype is an albatross for all black men, really. That there's a constant hyper-awareness that many people, and maybe even most people, out there see you and immediately interpret you as a Scary Black Man no matter what. Also @Souderwan's mention of how his military ID helped assuage a lot of problems in the South reminded me a bit of just how many of the posts in that tag had pictures in military uniform as the "good" picture.
     
  5. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    It's stupid all around. Um,although you didn't address that specifically to me- for my part, I've already said stupidity is color blind.
     
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  6. MistrX

    MistrX Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2006
    It'll be interesting to see if Walmart's security footage will ever be released. If not to the public than at least to any authorities performing investigations.
     
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  7. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    But honestly Merk, to be serious, the stupid "Open carry" people who walk around with penises guns strapped to their back are bad enough. But to address KW's concerns, this is where the details do matter.

    Because a rifle slung across the back with finger off trigger, not accessible, etc...Is a completely different beast than walking around a store pointing a gun at people. Had the OP Wal-Mart guy kept the gun in the box, it wouldn't be the same. Had he slung it on his back (for whatever reason) it wouldn't have been the same. But he walked around, pointing it at people to the point where 4 people called 9-11 including a caller who described him as "possibly loading the rifle."

    Compare this image
    [​IMG]

    and this image
    [​IMG]

    to this image
    [​IMG]

    And tell me that the most important "scary factor" is the race of the people walking around, and not their actions? The last guys are just doofuses, but the first 2...er....
     
  8. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Let's be honest, though, Mr44. The improper responses from police are far more likely to be ruled "justified", and are far less likely to result in any punishment than responses from any "civilians".

    Just look at the case earlier this year of the toddler injured by a flash bang grenade during a drug raid. Rather than even considering the need to reevaluate their procedures, they initially blamed the parents for having a child in the same house as a drug dealer.

    A large part of the problem is the increasing militarization of police forces nationwide, particularly for anything "drug" related. SWAT teams, which were initially intended only for extreme circumstances such as hostage scenarios, are not used as a matter of routine for executing warrants. It has become standard procedure for many departments to request "no knock" warrants and execute them in the middle of the night, when they could just as easily watch the location and execute the warrant when people are not home (i.e. catch them as they are leaving the house). The extreme actions are always justified in the name of "officer safety", but they often contribute to heightening tensions that make the entire situation more dangerous.

    Police are often given warrants sometimes on the flimsiest of reasons, using boilerplate language, with no real review of the underlying facts. Very few prosecutors are willing to tell the police that they don't have sufficient evidence for a warrant, and those that do will have officers perform an end run around them to get the warrant another way. At the same time, officers who negligently discharge their weapons often face little or no reprimand.

    Am I saying that all cops go to excess in the name of officer safety, or abuse their positions. However, there are numerous systematic pressures used to protect the police that do go to excess. Because of those systematic pressures, it is easier for cops to go to excess and not face repercussions for it.
     
  9. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002

    im going to recuse myself from this conversation and think a while on what i could be doing differently. thank you for calling me out, AaylaSecurOWNED

    for the record, i identify as "white". this was something i kind of questioned for a while in my mid-to-late teens, due to my partial arab heritage and the increasing "marked" status of arabs in american society, particularly after 9/11 (which occurred when i was 14). i have settled on "white" rather than "arab american" or mixed or anythign of the kind because in the public sphere i am almost always accorded full "white" status and i feel, ultimately, it would be unfair to claim "non-white" status given that fact. i am still very proud of my arab heritage, but in the same way i am proud of my irish heritage, as an ethnic background, and this is how i claim/relate to those inheritences - as ethnic background, not racial status

    EDIT: holy crap i just liked a Kimball_Kinnison post for having excellent analysis of institutional structures. now i know i need a break :p

    seriously tho, good post
     
  10. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Yeah. Maybe. But eh, a lot of that is based on 20/20 hindsight. There is no other profession where you have to make a snap second decision regarding life or death. The officer's, the person. Is it a real gun? Is it a pellet gun? Oops. You waited too long. It was a real gun. Those decisions aren't made in the best of circumstances or with the luxury of sitting at a computer calmly typing any number of what ifs. Like with anything, things can be taken too far. Militarization is no exception. Everything else would be based on the circumstances, not just unsupported statements or conjecture. Unless you've done something like "negligently discharge a weapon," and faced reprimand or penalty, it's kind of strange for you to make a blanket statement, especially since you're a details guy as well.

    I mean, what if this was a thread about marriage, and someone said something along the lines of "all Mormons engage in polygamy without concern for the feelings of those involved or without legal worry," would that be a valid, or invalid representation?
     
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  11. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    I hadn't realized that medicine, fire fighting, soldiering, and security were not professions.
     
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  12. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Yeah, that's exactly it.
    It's not that being in the military could be dangerous, it's semantics that is the true killer... :rolleyes:
     
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  13. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    I have a lot more sympathy for Open Carry Texas and their actions, largely because of what their primary motivation is.

    In Texas, the open carry of handguns is illegal. Only concealed carry is allowed (and that only with a permit). However, long gun open carry is legal. OCT's goal is to get legislators to change the law to allow for the open carry of handguns. The primary way that they do that is through openly carrying long guns in order to show the absurdity of allowing one but prohibiting the other. (And for some people, getting a concealed carry permit is not an option, such as people 18-20 years old, who can legally possess and own a handgun, but cannot get a permit until they are 21. Also, even with a permit, legal open carry helps in cases where you might accidentally expose your concealed firearm, such as the wind blowing a jacket open.)

    However, for those whose motivations are primarily "Look at me!" or "In your face!", rather than for legitimate political advocacy, I have far less sympathy.
     
  14. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Agreed, but only up to a point. Stupid is stupid, regardless of the pigment of the stupid person. OTOH, the point I'm going for in my OP is white people doing something stupid with actual assault rifles = LOL rednecks. Black man doing something stupid with a toy rifle = shot to death.
     
  15. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007

    If we're discussing the two white guys in the pics, the reason I would not be as concerned by them is they are clearly announcing they are there with their guns as political protest. I wouldn't expect them to damage their cause by shooting me. Thus there is less fear as I can anticipate their motivations and reason for having a gun. In the case of the man allegedly waving a pellet gun around a walmart... there would be more fear as I wouldn't know why he was waving the gun around.
     
  16. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    You said something for emphasis that was categorically untrue.
     
  17. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002

    But that's not it, although I agree with you that it contributes to the muddling of the issue. Again Merk, comment on this image:

    [​IMG]

    and then comment on this image:
    [​IMG]

    One picture has a man who happens to be black. But what's he doing? is that a toy gun? Is it a real gun? Why he is loading it in a public place? One picture has two men who are white. What are they doing? After receiving 9-11 calls about both incidents, the situations would be handled differently, and the least important factor is the race of the person. Switch the races of those in each picture, and the results would still match the activity portrayed in the images.
     
  18. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    @Mr44, let's look at a few simple case studies.

    Case 1:
    A law-abiding, private citizen is asleep in bed. Suddenly, he is jolted awake by the sound of his door being broken down. He grabs his handgun, and as a man in dark black clothes comes rushing into his bedroom, he shoots and kills the man. The person he shoots is a career criminal.

    Case 2:
    A law-abiding, private citizen is asleep in bed. Suddenly, he is jolted awake by the sound of his door being broken down. He grabs his handgun, and as a man in dark black clothes comes rushing into his bedroom, he shoots and kills the man. The person he shoots is a career police officer who executed a "no knock" warrant for the wrong address.

    In most jurisdictions, the person in case 1 would be ruled completely justifiable. He likely wouldn't even face any charges for the shooting, let alone risk significant jail time. The person in case 2, on the other hand, would be far more likely to face prosecution for multiple felonies, assuming that he wasn't shot and killed by the police officers following the one who was shot. That is a definite institutional prejudice towards the police.

    Case 3:
    A law abiding, private citizen sees a person carrying what appears to be an "assault rifle" in Wal-Mart and pointing it at people. He draws his legally carried sidearm, aims at the individual, and tells him to drop the rifle. As the individual turns around, he fires, thinking the man is going to shoot him first.

    Case 4:
    A police officer sees a person carrying what appears to be an "assault rifle" in Wal-Mart and pointing it at people. He draws his legally carried sidearm, aims at the individual, and tells him to drop the rifle. As the individual turns around, he fires, thinking the man is going to shoot him first.

    Is the officer in case 4 more or less likely to face negative repercussions for his actions, than the law abiding private citizen in case 3? In many jurisdictions, the private citizen would potentially face assault charges (at the least), while the officer's actions would be ruled fullly justified.

    Again, that is an institutional prejudice in favor of the police. Is is that sort of institutional bias that creates extreme distrust of the police in incidents like these. There is a severe lack of transparency, and a definite inclination to vindicate all but the most extreme cases.
     
  19. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    As amusing as this is, because it is a silly and foolish thing to do - we should at least charitably consider what they're doing. They believe that for their recreation, personal safety, and liberty, that they should be able to carry firearms in public places. They want to make a statement in order to show other people that they really do desire this, that they can do it and not be violent and dangerous, and to test their legal rights in order to ensure that they have them and continue to have them.

    I don't think it helps their cause, but that's what they''re trying to do.
     
  20. blubeast1237

    blubeast1237 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2007
    44,I've read all your posts and there is definitely some validity to what you're saying. The problem is what this thread is overall about: Police have a history of extreme, disproportional and fatal violence against black males in this country. I think you know that, but you're trying to find some kind of justification for it that doesn't start with "they might be" and end in "racist". As I said before, Idon't think all police are racist, but it is very clear that the violence they show towards black males is something institutionalized. Your argument is the same I've heard all my life "As a black man, don't appear to be threatening or scary." But I've always felt that I only have so much authority over how I appear to others.

    So I don't think you're wrong, you're just ignoring what we're talking about to focus on what YOU think is the issue. What about cases like Jonathan Ferrell's case from NC where, apparently, what it looks like is he was killed solely because of his race appearing threatening and overzealous police officers.
     
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  21. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    I think the real issue is the idea we assume police will behave professionally and lawfully. Police are humans, you give them weapons what do you expect them to do with them? The difference between a police officer and regular yahoo with a gun is the police officer is likely trained to shoot better. But in terms of human reaction to fear, the unknown, etc... they will react the same.

    Disarm the police, demilitarize the police. Institute a three strikes program. If your a cop being investigated for excessive force or the like, the third time it happens your done. No pension, benefits, retirement, pay, etc...
    The police should be terrified of the prospect of using force on anyone.
     
  22. blubeast1237

    blubeast1237 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2007
    That's my feeling on the cops. Cops are humans and I don't see it as legitimate that another human being, after a few months of training and tests, can then enforce the rule of law and make decisions that can lead to another's death. Cops aren't soldiers, no matter how much we glorify them. They go to work, work,then clock off, but I'm supposed to think this guy has the authority and clear judgement to always behave like he;s supposed to.

    Its kind of like Plato's defenders of the city, but if they were all average joes who could pass a test and shoot a gun.
     
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  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Just read through the thread and some good stuff here.

    Crawford made a dumbass move by playing with a toy pellet gun in Wal-Mart. But a lot of 22-year-olds make dumbass moves. They're really only adults in the legal sense. I'm not clear on what happened after the police arrived, if he did put up his hands like he was asked, but given that he was on the phone, it seems a bit of an overreaction to think that he was dangerous enough at that second to warrant shooting him on the spot.

    I recognize that police have to make split-second decisions on matters like this but it seems that a split-second decision is less likely to favor a black male than someone of another race.

    In Eric Garner's case, there is no reason whatsoever why the police should have choked him at all, even if they needed to restrain him, or refused to help him when he went into an asthma attack.

    Anecdotal evidence on this issue being what it is, I read @Souderwan's post and I have had at least one conversation about this with a man I work with (a little younger than me, and African American) and it is disturbing how different our experiences with the police have been. My co-worker is literally afraid to get pulled over because of how the police might treat him. I have been pulled a few times (lead foot, shut up), and the worst I have ever gotten from a police officer is 'Now honey, don't be stupid, your speedometer is right there and you know you were driving too fast' and a very expensive ticket. The only time I have been pulled without knowing exactly why I was being pulled was in South Carolina last December when I got a warning for "changing lanes without a turn signal".

    I was taught as a kid that "police are helpers" and I have never hesitated to call 911 if I needed them (which thankfully hasn't happened much); from this thread and from what I've heard elsewhere, African Americans are often either afraid to call the police or find calling them useless.

    It's sad and sick that skin color would make experiences so different and I don't know what the answer is other than continuing to keep bringing these issues to light until change happens.

    ETA: Yes, police are humans, but "with great power comes great responsibility" and misuse of power needs to be taken more seriously and have greater consequences.
     
  24. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    I really liked this, and I feel that this is really the crux of the matter, so I am quoting it by itself for emphasis and support.
     
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  25. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    If I may inquire of Kimball_Kinnison, to what degree does military surplus and/or a connection to the military play in your view with regard to the militarizing of local police forces?
     
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