PT Why did Dooku reveal the truth to Obi Wan on Geonosis??

I have always wondered about this.
Dooku basically told Kenobi what was going on. Why?? Wasn't it risky for Dooku to do so or was it part of the plan (Dooku tells the truth knowing the Jedi will not believe it in any case)? Thoughts please.


General... Prepare your troops for a surface attack!

 

Moved to PT

 

He was trying to turn Kenobi and what better when then to tell the truth.

 

Bond villain complex. They always seem to spill the beans when they've captured 007. Although, Dooku knew about the Clone Army, and could guess that Kenobi would be saved, so who knows. Maybe it was just taking a stab in the dark to see if Obi Wan would join the master of his master. I'm sure Dooku, felt a bond with Qui Gon, and through that bond also felt a bond with Obi Wan.

 

I think Dooku did it showing he's not the 'villain' basically everyone paints him as and it shows Obi is foolish.

 

OBI-WAN: "Do you believe what Count Dooku said about Sidious controlling the Senate? It doesn't feel right."

YODA: "Joined the dark side, Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now."

MACE: "Never the less, I feel we should keep a closer eye on the Senate."

YODA: "I agree."

It was to sow the seeds of discontent between the Jedi and the Senate, which would evolve to the Chancellor and set up what happens in ROTS. If he could turn Obi-wan and have him at his side like he does with Ventress, then that would be a great bonus.

 

It's similar to instances we see repeated throughout the films. In ROTS, Palpatine appeals to Anakin. In ROTS, Anakin appeals to Padme. In ESB, Vader appeals to Luke. In ROTJ, Palpatine appeals to Luke. It's always "Hey, the grass is greener over here... you should join me!" Of course, Dooku does it in a more polished and charismatic way. This is the second scene we get of Dooku, who up to this point, we learn is a villain once it is revealed that he was in fact working to create the Droid Army for war purposes as well as his association with Gunray, who is trying to kill Padme. As far as why Dooku is telling the truth to Obi-Wan, well, he probably feels at this point that he is quite invincible. We glimpse that when he confronts Yoda. It's possible he genuinely believes that with a powerful Jedi ally on his side, he has a chance to take down Sidious and become the Sith Master. Dooku is playing on Obi-Wan's sympathies, bringing up Qui-Gon and claiming that he would be on his side. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, is dealing in absolutes... denying anything that Dooku is saying as truth in a sort of way that reminds me of a child covering his ears and shaking his head while saying "Nope... can't hear you!" . He's not really in a position to be open to Dooku's claims after what he finds out about the Droid Army and finding himself in captivity, so Dooku's speech is falling on deaf ears. Either way, Dooku may not feel the Jedi will actually be able to figure out who Sidious is soon enough, or maybe he expects Obi-Wan will be killed in the arena and not be able to tell anyone anyway. And if Obi-Wan survives, it could build distrust between the Jedi and the Senate. It's sort of left open to interpretation, but I think the simplest answer is that he really wanted Obi-Wan to join him so that they could replace Sidious.

 

That's where I think the mistake lies. Basically everyone *assumes* it's more of the same. But hey, perceptions.

 

Dooku's behaviour in both AoTC and RoTS (novel and movie) is consistent with the idea that his goal at the time was to sow discontent, and maybe "turn" Obi-Wan.

 

We never get to know why he told Obi-Wan all those things, but that's just one of the unexplained aspects of AotC. And I love that it's so ambiguous. It gives room for all sorts of interesting debate and theories, some posts in this thread being a fine example.

 

Agreed. Hey, many seem content to see it pretty simply. That's fine. I don't think Dooku was trying to turn Obi and that's fine too.

 

So from what I gather, Dooku wins either way. He probably guessed Kenobi would not turn so it mattered not if he told him how things really were...knowing the Jedi as he did, there was a high chance they wouldn't believe what he revealed.

 

Well first question, did he think Obi-Wan would be able to tell anyone?
That doesn't seem likely, he didn't let him go and had him thrown into an arena to be eaten by beasts.
Even if we assume that Dooku knew that the Jedi and the clone army was coming at that time, he couldn't know that Obi-Wan would survive all that. Dooku prepares to kill Obi-Wan once he wounds him, this suggest he wants him dead.
So him telling Obi-Wan this just to mess with the JC doesn't really work as Obi-Wan isn't likely to survive long enough to tell anyone.
He could be telling Obi-Wan all this BECAUSE he figured that Obi-Wan would soon be dead, classic villain mistake, tell the hero everything because you think they will be dead soon.

Second question, was he really trying to recruit Obi-Wan? Possible but why would he think it would work? Dooku doesn't know exactly what Obi-Wan has overheard but he could think that Obi-Wan knows about him being involved in the attempted murder of Padme and his plan to use his big droid army against the republic. Obi-Wan calls Dooku traitor when he sees him. So he can't really play the good guy, esp since he works with the TF, who aren't nice people. So did he think that Obi-Wan would be quick to turn or join the Sith? Again, why?

Third question, would Dooku really have released Obi-Wan if he'd said he would help him? Obi-Wan could just be playing along. Or what would he say if Obi-Wan said that he needed more info? Would he tell him?
That would actually have been a smart move on Obi-Wans part, keep Dooku talking.

To me, it came across as Dooku just messing with Obi-Wan, telling lies mixed with truth just to see how he will react.
I don't think Dooku ever intended to release him or that his offer was serious. I think he knew what Obi-Wan's answer would be.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

This

 

He's showing Obi-Wan that the system is corrupt in order to turn him to his side and reveal later that , oh yes the Sith that i told you we're going to destroy, we're actually them. It's not so far off from what Palpatine does to Anakin. "good is a point of view'

 

The Sith are so powerful at that point that they can tell "the truth" and the Jedi won't believe them. It seems to them too outlandish to be true, and at the same time, they hope it isn't true, which kind of plays into what Mace Windu says in ROTS that "our worst fears have been realized".

Perhaps he was trying to turn Obi-Wan to the dark side, perhaps not.

The other side of the coin is that it plays as a nice mirror to the ESB scene of "I am your father" in which the villain tells the truth to the hero, the hero rejects it as being impossible, and then says "I will never join you".

 

Dooku knows the attack on Geonosis is coming since Palpatine planned it that way and let him know. Hence the Droid Army being at the ready as it was and the lack of surprise at Mace's arrival. As to telling the others, Dooku doesn't know if Obi-wan didn't relay information to Yoda and Mace from his transport during the battle. It was quite possible that he did, in which case he was willing to kill him.

Because of their connection to Qui-gon who was dead in part because of the Jedi Council and he believed that he shared a similar sentiment that Qui-gon had that the Republic was broken as was the Jedi Council. Remember, they've never met until now. He doesn't know what his thought process is.

He would sense the deception if he tried to fake him out.

 

Great answers all around I don't think I have anything new to add.

 

As I said, even if we assume this, Dooku had Obi-Wan thrown into an arena with deadly monsters, he could have been killed. Or killed in the rather big fight that followed. Or is your argument that he programmed ever single battle droid to NOT shoot at Obi-Wan? And why would Obi-Wan take time to start talking about the Senate and some Sidious guy, he had other things to deal with.
No, Dooku has little reason to think that Obi-Wan would be able to tell anyone.

Both Yoda and Qui-Gon had apparently told Dooku about Obi-Wan so he had some idea of what he was like. When did Qui-Gon said that the Republic was broken? He disagreed with the council yes but I don't recall him saying anything like this. And Dooku hears Obi-Wan call him traitor when he enters the room so he would be aware that Obi-wan knows what he has been up to. So why would he think that a Jedi would be fine with murder and attempted murder and launching a sneak attack on the Republic?

[/QUOTE]

Since Dooku didn't sense or even consider Palpatine's deception, that is not certain.
And given the rule of two, Dooku is a bit of an idiot for not suspecting this.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneafce

 

I think Dooku kinda has this weird thing going on where he's got two contradictory goals in wanting to serve the Sith and destroy them at the same time. When he leaves the Jedi Order, he does so out of disillusionment and disgust, and decides that he's going to do what the Jedi couldn't...he would find and destroy the second Sith Lord. His anger eventually causes him to turn to the dark side, and when he does encounter Darth Sidious, he decides that the Jedi Order and Republic need to be torn down and remade...and so he becomes Sidious's apprentice. But he does want to destroy the Sith, in spite of being one himself, and he probably thinks Obi-Wan would be amenable to his way of thinking since he's trained by the maverick Qui-Gon.

 

I thought maybe he said it to throw them off because he didn't actually think they would believe it. And yeah, sow whatever seeds of doubt he could. Very possible he would have liked to get Obi on his side as well. Both seem very likely.

 

Since Dooku didn't sense or even consider Palpatine's deception, that is not certain.
And given the rule of two, Dooku is a bit of an idiot for not suspecting this.
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I blame ROTS for this.

AOTC made Dooku and intriguing, enigmatic figure,

ROTS made him unfortunately into a pawn to simply get rid of him early in the film just so Anakin can have nightmares about labour and Obi-Wan chasing a coughing half chicken half robot.

 

Dooku was attempting to shake Obi-Wan's confidence in the Republic and the Jedi, and convince Obi-Wan to join him and the Separatists (allegedly to fight the Sith). The relevant quote is:

​

Dooku didn't actually reveal much information, though. Dooku revealed Palpatine's Sith name, but with no way to connect the Sith name to Palpatine's public persona the name is useless. The information he gave was also misleading: by saying that "hundreds of senators are under the influence" Dooku implied that the Sith Lord was influencing them privately from behind the scenes when in fact the Sith Lord was influencing the Republic Senate in his public capacity as the Supreme Chancellor.

Since Dooku didn't reveal much information and did so in a misleading way, it was a relatively low risk gamble to attempt to gain Obi-Wan as an ally of the Separatists.

 

Dooku was tempting Obi Wan. He was testing the waters to see how Obi Wan would react. However, if you look at everything that Dooku said to Obi Wan, you realize that he was lying just as much as he was telling the truth. It was a matter to confuse the Jedi, and make sure that they didn't suspect that Dooku was in league with the hidden Sith they were looking for. Afterall, what better way to throw the Jedi off his own scent but by giving them information that he knows won't do them any good, but, to them is new info.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Traitor!
Count Dooku: Oh no, my friend. This is a mistake, a terrible mistake. They have gone too far, this is madness! (Lie... there was no mistake, holding Obi Wan was purely Dooku's doing)
Obi-Wan Kenobi: I thought you were the leader here, Dooku.
Count Dooku: This had nothing to do with me; I assure you. I will petition immediately to have you set free. (Lie... Dooku is clearly in charge)
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Well, I hope it doesn't take too long. I have work to do.
Count Dooku: May I ask why a Jedi Knight is all the way out here on Geonosis?
Obi-Wan Kenobi: I'm tracking a bounty hunter named Jango Fett. Do you know him?
Count Dooku: There are no bounty hunters here that I'm aware of. The Geonosians don't trust them. (Lie... Dooku dodges the question if he knows Jango, but flat out lies about a BH being there)
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Well, who can blame them? But he is here, I assure you.
Count Dooku: It's a great pity our paths have never crossed before, Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon always spoke very highly of you. I wish he were still alive. I could use his help right now.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you.
Count Dooku: Don't be so sure, my young Jedi. You forget that he was once my apprentice, just as you were once his. He knew all about the corruptions of the Senate, but he would never have gone along with it if he had known the truth as I have.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: The truth?
Count Dooku: The truth. What if I told you that the Republic is now under the control of a Dark Lord of the Sith?
Obi-Wan Kenobi: No, that's not possible! The Jedi would be aware it!
Count Dooku: The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: I don't believe you.
Count Dooku: The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help; he told me everything. You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith! (Lie... We find out in ROTS that Gunray is still in league with Sidious)
Obi-Wan Kenobi: I will never join you, Dooku.
Count Dooku: It may be difficult to secure your release. (Obviously when Obi Wan rejects Dooku, Dooku then shows him there is a price for his lack of vision)

 

But again, Dooku had no way of knowing that Obi-Wan would be alive to tell anyone. Unless he had kept Obi-wan away from the arena. But he didn't do that.
Second, Dooku used Force lightning, had a Red lightsaber and Yoda sensed the dark side in him, more than enough to make him a Sith and since the Sith always work in pairs, the Jedi would quickly connect him with this other Sith. Also Dooku is working with the TF who are known Sith collaborators. So Dooku can't hope that the Jedi won't make him as a Sith or connect him with this other Sith that they now know the name of.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface