Games The 20th EUC Starfigher Draft: Rebels Without a Cause (Champion: s65horsey)

I am torn on arguing, if Wang Chi was active I would but otherwise seems unfair.

Wang, the title is on the line you got time to drop an argument?

 

Yeah, I'll do my best to carve out some time tonight or tomorrow. One last long-winded argument for the road.

 

Wouldn't want it any other way.

 

Hey! You can't do that!

 

Me, too. Agreed on the others, as well.

 

That's no fun! Sorry for the hold up... again, but I finally have some spare time to dedicate to this. Gonna post this first so you guys have it as a reference.



To re-summarize the first game, dude disabled a Star Destroyer in his very first combat mission along with two other pilots (one of them being Ru Murleen, who we'll be seeing again here shortly) and did indeed survive Yavin, but not in the role the game shows him in. Basically, if that were it, I'd understand why he gets the level of respect he generally does in this draft. Which is to say some, but really not all that much. Taking the second game into account, though, I really feel like he should be getting quite a bit more. How much more? Well, let's find out.

Skip to 5:35 in the video. First mission in the game, and he's piloting a B-wing now. He's already proven himself in both an A-wing and X-wing in the first game, now he's onto B-wings. This is kinda important, I think. I'll get into it more in a bit, but the guy can fly anything. Anyways, in missions like the first one, I'm not going to sit here and count how many TIEs the player that made this video shot and make a dumb argument like "Hey, R1 took out 37 or whatever TIEs in one mission!". No, that's idiotic. Obviously it wasn't that many and we can't know the exact number, so the first mission doesn't really give us much. Although, a "womp rat's nest" of TIEs makes me think it was at least a squadron's worth. Again, can't be certain of that, but it was still just two against... whatever.

Then he gets shot down from behind by a TIE Phantom, and given that they're still a complete mystery at this point, that's not a knock on him at all.

Skip to 13:45. And then after the cutscene skip ahead to 16:55 for the run where the player doesn't die (obviously R1 made it through on his first run ). This is where it gets good. This is the advantage of the Rebel Assault games being more like rail shooters, and the advantage R1 has over other videogame pilots like Keyan and Azzameen (Stele is bolstered by The Stele Chronicles). Missions like this where we get to see exactly what kind of craziness he had to maneuver through to escape that mining facility. I mean, just look at some of that nonsense. It's nuts. And he's not in an A-wing here. He's piloting a YT freighter, which, by the way, we have no reason to believe he's ever had any experience piloting before. This guy right here, this R1. It doesn't matter what kind of craft he's flying. He's a beast in anything. That's just pure talent.

And then the second section of the mission where he has to act as gunner as well. He's by himself. There's no Chewie here. No Nunb. He's flying a craft that (in all likelihood) he's completely unfamiliar with, one that's much easier to handle with a co-pilot, through a very complex and very tight mining tunnel at not-slow speeds, with enemies actively trying to shoot him down, with ray shields blocking his path and hatches trying to close on him, acting as both pilot and gunner at the same time. Just that right there. Already there's a feat that a fair number of pilots that usually get taken ahead of him can't top. But I'm not done yet.

22:25. So an asteroid field again. Eh, I do have to say that the two Rebel Assault games do their fair share in trivializing asteroid fields. They almost make it seem routine. This one is a mined asteroid field, and getting through it is definitely a feat, but he's also in an X-wing. Good stuff, but let's keep going.

Next mission is the same three up against a "swarm" of Interceptors. Again, eh. Another one where we have no legitimate numbers to rely on, and it's in open space, so no real idea of his maneuvers and whatnot. I guess it's experience, but it's almost a mission we can just ignore. Too many unknowns.

28:20. More good stuff like the YT mission earlier. Impressive, but we're still getting to the real meat.

33:30. Just a training mission, but once again showing how talented R1 is, no matter what he's flying. Now he's in a TIE fighter! "Splendid flying, Rookie One. You'd do The Emperor proud." - Admiral Krane

37:30. Here we go. Now he's piloting a Y-wing. And this time, we have a good idea of some numbers. "Over a dozen" TIE Interceptors against three Y-wings. At an absolute bare minimum they were outnumbered 4 to 1 against much, much more maneuverable Interceptors. R1 thrives and survives once again against long odds, this time in a bomber not terribly suited to dogfighting.

So just keep watching through to the next chapter, because this is it. This is the big kahuna. So, okay, navigating an asteroid field is tricky, but a good pilot can handle it. That's clearly established. Navigating an asteroid field in a clunky Y-wing, however? That's definitely trickier. But still, a great pilot should be able to handle it. Navigating an asteroid field in which ray shields have been set up to prevent ships from getting through? Yikes. But... successfully navigating a ray shielded asteroid field, in a Y-wing, where the asteroids themselves are shooting at him = ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS?!?!?

That, my friends. That right there makes R1 the second best videogame pilot on the list, behind only Stele. I'm sorry, but it's true. Where Keyan usually gets drafted, that should be R1. I'm totes serious. Are there other pilots on the list that could pull off a feat like that? Of course. But the thing is... they're all first and second and (some) third rounders. You've got pilots like Horton Salm, who have careers a bajillion years long, and yet, not a single thing indicating that they could pull off something like that. For all his experience in a Y-wing, if I was to have to answer whether or not I have sufficient reason to believe that he could do that, my answer would have to be "Well, um... no, not really." And yet he always seems to go ahead of R1. Pilots like Asyr, whose best feat as an individual is going beast mode in a "last stand" scenario and taking out a lot of enemies by herself. R1's best feats put her's to shame.

He survived Yavin, he's survived long odds, he's a monster in whatever craft he straps himself into, he disabled a Star Destroyer and took out its compliment of TIEs as part of only a three person team in his very first combat mission, he wasn't at Endor, but has been through missions where he had to navigate tunnels that were just as tricky.

If I seem like I'm done, I'm not. I just have some things to take care of. I'll finish up later on.

EDIT: I'll still finish, since there's the team battle to consider.

 

I'll put up an argument for the team battle today. I think my far more cohesive Luke led team wins this.

 

Replace Koon and Garn with Sandskimmer and Capstan and we're good.

 

Nobody is beating Luke, he is better than the rest of the board by a good margin. Also, there is really no comparing the cohesion on my team vs the opposing team. I have interweaving connections of cohesion up and down my team roster, especially in the top 3. The opposing team top 5 hasn't ever flown together that I am aware of, and what sparse cohesive links you have (Han and Lando, Saba and Lowbacca) don't really seem to make up for it.

Han and Lando Presents is a good collection of individuals, but they can hardly be called a team. In fact I think that Rookie and Maarek probably won't jive, nor would Han and Asajj....or Saba and Asajj....or Lowbacca and Asajj. I don't really see Maarek connecting on a pilot level with anyone beyond Han here, don't really see him as a problem, but he doesn't really fit the team mold either so he is neutral at best.

All in all, just doesn't seem like a team that is built well enough to take on a highly cohesive and talented Luke led team.

 

Prison Break (4) vs Lunchmeat Squadron (4)

Wedge Antilles, Pash Cracken, Wes Janson, Asyr Sei'lar, Jake Farrell, Syal Antiles, Myri Antilles, Voort "Piggy" saBinring
vs
Jaina Solo, Gavin Darklighter, Aril Nunb, Adi Gallia, Ace Azzameen, Dash Rendar, Falynn Sandskimmer, Anni Capstan


These teams are really close. The first three are ridiculously so. Some of my people haven't flown together, but I don't see any problems with them
doing so. I think I will leave this to the judges. I have been banging my head against the wall with this one for the last two days, and we need to move along.

 

I should have some time tomorrow. Not only to finish pimping R1, but also to argue the team battle.

 

Holy crap! I'm actually able to get to something when I said I would... for once. Looks like the first video I posted got a copyright claim, so...



After he gets through that asteroid field, he lands on the surface and meets up with Ru Murleen. And then there's a couple of ground based missions, so we get to skip ahead all the way to 59:00.

They steal a TIE Phantom, and it's actually Murleen that straps into the pilot's seat and R1 acts as a gunner, and he's actually done being behind the stick for the rest of the game. I don't feel like this is a knock on him at all, since I feel he's already more than proven himself as a pilot by now. And even just acting as a gunner, we'll get to see just how incredible of a shot he is in just a few moments. The mission of them escaping the Super Star Destroyer is alright, but nothing too incredible.

1:04:00, though. This mission really highlights his ability to shoot. Okay, so no exact numbers to go off of, but consider the situation they're in. They're outnumbered god-knows-what to one (it has to be a lot, I mean... they're only at the site where the Phantoms are being built) against TIEs that don't become visible until just before they shoot at you. And by the way, the TIE Phantom that they're flying? It's completely visible the entire time (they don't get their cloaking device working until the cutscene at the end of the mission). They may as well just be flying an Interceptor or something. R1 is at a complete and total disadvantage as a gunner, Ru is at a total disadvantage as a pilot. That's... an impossible situation when you sit down and think about it. By all rights, they shouldn't have survived. But they did. Think about the skill it took for him to keep those Phantoms from turning them into debris. How fast are his reflexes when compared to those of an average pilot? Pretty damned fast, I'd say.

And then there's the final mission where they take out the Phantom factory, which is more good stuff, but nothing we haven't already seen before. So, anyways, I already sorta made my final statement on R1 in the last post, but if there's ever another one of these things, Ru Murleen really should be added to the list. Between her being one of the other two pilots to help R1 disable that Star Destroyer in the first game and the skill she showed in those last few missions of the second game, I feel like she'd make a really, really solid backfield-type pick for a squad.

Team battle stuff up after I eat.

 

So... just out of curiosity, did I completely waste my time with the R1 argument? Was all that stuff already common knowledge and am I the only one impressed?

Anyways, got started packing some boxes instead last night and was too tired for this. So basically, the main point of contention is cohesion here. Yep, my squad is a bit patchwork, I'll admit. But, Mika, dude, not only is your team's cohesion as great as you're making it out to be, mine's a good deal better than you seem to think. Your team's cohesion basically revolves around your pilots having a connection with the squad leader but not much else, and that's fine. Obviously that's the first place you look to for your cohesive links. You do, however, have a couple of complete cohesive whiffs on your team that you're not acknowledging. And... that's pretty much what I have going on as well. Your cohesion is good, my cohesion is good (about equal, I'd say), but let's not pretend either of our teams have Sey's cohesion. They don't.

I'ma break it down.

Okay, Luke. Yep, best pilot in the match, as you said. But I don't for a second think it's by the huge gaping chasm you claim it is. Both Han and Stele are capable of giving Luke fits in a one-on-one dogfight. Neither one would win, of course, but it's no boom.

Kyp? You know I love Kyp (and actually think he's underrated over here, as opposed to overrated in Jedi), but I don't think the cohesion with Luke is as amazing as you think it is. No, I'm not going down the road of the NJO Luke/Kyp beef. That hasn't been a thing in forever. Hell, it was sqaushed during the NJO (Destiny's Way, I think). You seem to be implying same-squadron level cohesion with them, though. They've participated in the same battle many, many times, yes. But, ummmmm, Kyp was always leading his own squadron in those battles. It's not like they've ever been a wingpair. All the way through Dark Nest and beyond, you can find examples of Luke and Kyp flying in the same battle, but that doesn't automatically give them Luke/Mara cohesion or even Kell/Runt level cohesion. Their cohesion should be good, but you're implying "great".

Farlander? Interweaving connections in your top three? Where? Sure, Luke and Kyp (and Octa) would certainly know Keyan as well. But aside from Keyan being at Yavin with Luke (as part of a different squad), we have no instances of him flying with any one of them. Ever. In fact, aside from participating in the one battle with Luke and Biggs, he's never flown with a single member of your squadron. Not once. Some of your pilots like Jace and Nrin would certainly know his name and have respect for him as a General, but... the great cohesion is... where? Him being a Jedi along with Luke, Kyp and Octa means they know each other, but that's not much. Again, good cohesion in all likelihood, but zero reason to believe great.

Kasan? Actually your first really nice cohesive link. Flew in the same squadron as Luke. Knows him well. Good stuff. Outside of him, though. She's knows/has flown with precisely no one else in the squad. Ever.

Biggs? Of course is a very nice connection with Luke on a personal level. However, beyond flying together at Yavin? Where's the actual combat experience together? It's one real battle and that's it. That and years of bullseye-ing womp rats in their T-16s back home. I'd never in a million years suggest that their cohesion is bad, but really, Biggs' cohesion with Wedge or Hobbie would be better. They've flown together more often in actual life-or-death battles. Plus, Luke knows Biggs extremely well, but how well does Biggs know Luke? Think about that for a second. Biggs knows farmboy Luke. He knows Wormie. Meeting Jedi Grandmaster Luke would be almost like meeting a stranger for him. Again, very nice cohesion, but where's the "great"? Oh, and also again, outside of Luke? He knows nobody (maybe he knows Keyan on some level, but that's pure speculation). Has flown with nobody.

Nrin? He knows nobody on this squadron. Has flown with no one. I'm sure he respects Luke and would be happy to fly with him, but this is completely neutral cohesion.

Jace? Ditto what I said with Nrin. And it's not like those two were Rogues at the same time. 100% neutral cohesion.

Octa? Actually is more cohesive with Kyp, as she used to fly in his sqaudron. And yep, in pretty much the same boat as Kyp in terms of her flying experience with Luke. Obviously, she fits in very nicely with the squad and is a definite plus.

So yeah, your cohesion is good. Mine's good too.

Han connects with more pilots on my squad in more ways than you seem to think.

I'll start with Lando, actually. Han and Lando, right off the bat, have a better cohesive connection than Luke has with anyone on your squad. They've flown together so often, know each other so damned well, been through so much crap together that's it's scary. And you know what? Through Lando, Han at the very least has met and participated in a mission with the most talented individual pilot on my team.

Stele? Oh, yeah, in FotJ Outcast, Lando calls in some favors in order to save Kessel. Han is among that group, so is Wedge and Inyri and others. But also... Maarek Stele. His appearance amounts to nothing more than a name drop, and the mission in question wasn't a battle in space against other pilots, but it is, at the very least, something. Han and Stele have at least met in person (which is more than Bror or Nrin can say about anyone in their squad, including Luke) and have cooperated towards a common goal. And Stele obviously knows Lando well enough to be on his contact list and comes to help when Lando needs a favor. How they know eachother is a total mystery, but again, it's something. So... BOOM! There goes the notion you put forth that Stele wouldn't connect as a pilot with anyone aside from maybe Han. He knows Han, knows Lando, would want to fly with them, and he's a team player. A surly team player. Yeah, yeah, he was once an Imperial. So what? The war is long over, and if Han can get over it, anyone else on my squad can. Including R1. You say you think they won't jive? Why? Care to elaborate? Neutral cohesion, yes, but they're both professionals, are they not?

Saba? I'm sorry, Saba is closer with Han than Luke and Kyp will ever be. Han considers Saba family (yes, he's said that) and vice versa. And they have flown together several times. In fact, in flipping through Star by Star for a quote, which is Saba's first major appearance, she's in her blastboat during a battle, flying right alongside Han in the Falcon. You know who else was right there to make it a trio? Lando in the Lady Luck. Speaking of, Lando and Saba know eachother very, very well and have great respect as well. Also in SbS, who does Saba entrust with Tesar, Bela and Krasov's lives in order to turn them over to the Vong for their mission? Yep, Lando. Saba immediately is respected in that book by everyone she meets (being Denning's Mary Sue) for being a spectacular team player, including Luke, Gavin, Wedge, Han, etc, while Kyp irks people left and right by directly disobeying Luke's order in a battle and doing his own thing with his squadron (yes, old news, I know, but it's a thing). So Saba moves the cohesion needle in a postive way with, not only with my squad leader, but also with Lando and Lowie, who she's also flown with. Saba links to my squad better than anyone you've got, so why is my team so incohesive again?

R1? Yep, a neutral cohesion whiff. But I don't care, he's a proven team player and a beastly individal pilot. I have him over anyone on your squad save for Luke and Kyp. And he's my 5th rounder.

Kenobi? The connection with with squad leader is sparse, at best. But he's still the ultimate team player. And he's with a cohesive wingmate in Asajj.

Speaking of Asajj, you say she'd clash with Han, Saba and Lowie. Ummm... why? Have we already forgotten that her tale ends with her being redeemed? Why would she clash with Han, whom she's never met. Why would Saba and Lowie have any reason to not get along with her, especially if the legendary Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi is vouching for her? She doesn't negatively affect the cohesion on my squad in any way, and is only a positive when paired with Kenobi.

Lowie? Has flown with Saba, knows Han and Lando extremely well. Han having Chewie's nephew on his team isn't a positive cohesive link? Oh, and in case we've forgotten Lowie (as well as Lumpy) took over Chewie's life debt after he died. Lowie's not bringing his absolute A-game in this battle?

Let's look at it another way. Let's break it down into the likely wing pairs these team are going to go with.

My team:
Han/Lando - A given, though you could make a case for Han/Lowie. An absolutely stellar wingpair cohesively.
Saba/Lowie - Very nice, especially given the meld. It's not as good as it would be with her and one of her children, but still very good.
Kenobi/Ventress - I've already covered this. They know each other too damn well for this not to work. Oh, and btw, along with Saba, Kenobi's a master of the meld as well.
Stele/R1 - My only neutral pair. But honestly, they're both so damned good individually that it may not matter.

Your team:
Luke/Biggs - Maybe it's Kasan, but Luke would almost certainly be paired off with Biggs, IMO. Very nice cohesion, but as stated above, probably not as amazing as you think it'd be.
Kyp/Octa - Super obvious, great wingpair. And meldy.

Then...what? It's a mish-mash, whether it's Biggs or Kasan or Keyan or whoever the hell pairs off with Luke. Keyan, Kasan, Biggs, Nrin, Jace... nobody flown with anybody among that group. I'm not saying it's bad cohesion, but where's the connections beyond "everyone knows Luke" (though not everybody does)?

You know what? I know I started this post saying our cohesion was somewhat equal, but **** it, I'm calling it right now. Mine's better. And beyond you having the best pilot in the match, my squad is better individually, with R1 bolstering a great backfield when he has no business being a backfield pilot.

My team should totally win.

 

Because Han knows a dirt bag when he sees one.

I have cohesion down, I have the best pilot not only in the match....but the entire draft (not really close in this match as nobody is going to humor him being beat to Han or Stele), it's going to take some effort by multiple top pilots to take him out....and while they are doing that they are leaving their backfield vulnerable. That's kind of the beauty of Luke, we all know that in order to beat him you have to bring your game and team up against him, and even then it won't be fast.

There, that's my argument. Going to leave it at that as I don't really have a lot of time, and it doesn't seem that Wang does either (though I am very glad to see him drop a bomb in here one last time).

Good luck Wang.

 

Inty, Jello I will have an argument tonight. I went to argue the other night and the boards were down and I wasn't able to yesterday. New job is giving me fits.


Sent from my iHorse

 

Well, I was going to judge, but I'll hold off on that argument, 'sey. Although, honestly, I'm leaning your team's way anyways.

 

Again sorry for the delays, I have essentially become a nanny for a teenager (don't ask) and it has been a weird first week!

Wedge Antilles, Pash Cracken, Wes Janson, Asyr Sei'lar, Jake Farrell, Syal Antiles, Myri Antilles, Voort "Piggy" saBinring
vs
Jaina Solo, Gavin Darklighter, Aril Nunb, Adi Gallia, Ace Azzameen, Dash Rendar, Falynn Sandskimmer, Anni Capstan

PG already pointed out that my cohesion is better but I also believe that my bottom end is better. The top is close. Wedge is definitely better than Jaina but Gavin is better than Pash whereas Wes is better than Aril and Adi is probably even with Asyr. Ace and Jake are close as well, but really my bottom three pilots are leaps and bounds better than his. Falynn was suicidal dying early in her pilot career and not that good of a pilot to begin with. Anni died in battle early in her career also and just doesn't have the experience that Piggy brings to my team.

 

But then there is Dash who I think is the best out of our bottom six. The sisters just don't have the experience yet.

These teams really are very close. Nice match either way Sey.

 

I'm going with Luke ... over Han and Lando.

Not because of cohesion. Not because I didn't appreciate the Bob Lob Law Law Blog Law Bomb-like posting Wang did for R1. Not because I devalue anything in there due to video game uberness. Mainly, because, for me, it comes down to experience. The skill is pretty close. The cohesion is actually pretty close. But, the experience? Not so much. Too many folks on Han and Lando spent too much time outside of the cockpit and/or the time they spent in the cockpit wasn't directly battle. Hell, they've even got one guy who admits to hating flying. I take the approach that experience matters much more in a team battle than it does in an 1-on-1 situation, because individual skill can trump there. But, when you're just not all that used to being able to fly in these types of situations, that's a wild card that can be tough to overcome. So, that's that.

Going with Prison Break.

This one comes down to the fact that i think Prison Break will function much better as a cohesive unit. That's not a be-all, end-all, but when the individuals are so closely grouped, it does make a difference. That one slight moment of not knowing where your teammate is can cost you, and it will here.

And Blackhole surfers.

not that close.

 

Didn't think that would happen.

Though I have to admit that beating a Durron built team is just as shocking for me, don't think I've ever done that before....and I've literally been trying for years.