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Saga Star Wars- an anti-power fantasy saga

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Mr. B, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Here, here, Lulu! =D= As does Cushy. In RL on in SW and unlike most, Cushy is willing to admit the failure for even attempting such lies on both parties NOT simply the Empire/Tarkin.
     
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  2. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Where do I seem not to understand that? That's exactly what I've been saying and what I've said in many threads.
     
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  3. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    He ordered her execution, held her planet hostage to force her to talk, and blew up her world anyway full of innocent people. Tarkin clearly demonstrated he is not a man that can be reasoned with and that he has no integrity. You can't reason with someone who has no integrity and doesn't to want make peace. For a peaceful solution to take pace both sides must want peace and willing to talk, both must have integrity, the Empire doesn't want peace or wants to talk and has zero integrity

    . They only want to hammer down any nails that stick up.

    Not really, as I explained above. If the Rebels never stole the plans or performed any military operations, they would all be either dead or in prison waiting to be executed, that is how the Empire rolls. Measages of love would fall on deaf ears, especially since the bulk of imperial troops are probably clones who have been engineered to be loyal to the Empire, no reasoning with them. Normal human officers would mainly be power hungry pricks like Tarkin, fully believe what they are doing is right and kill anyone who tries to upset their worldview, or too afraid of being punished as it it is better to be at the side of the devil than to be in his path.
     
  4. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Slicer: I disagree. Leia didn't have integrity either. To each their own. :)
     
  5. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    Maybe in the long term but you have to be concerned with the short term as well with the present oppresed people who are suffering and dying. The more time you take, the more people die. In the long term we are all dead, which is why you should not ignore the short term. The problem with the Jedi order was that they were too focused on the long term the future. Qui-Gon foucused more on the present and the short term the hear and now. Yoad and Obi-Wan learned this too but payed a high cost of seeing their order nearly destroyed.
     
  6. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    Except Leia was trying to save lives while Tarkin could not care less about life, reasoning with a man like him is pointless will only get you killed. When the other side, like the Empire are unwilling to talk peace, you must fight or die.
     
  7. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    But the Rebels didn't have time, the Empire is coming to kill them right then and there. Their only choice was to fight for their lives, unless you believe they should have let the Empire kill them.
     
  8. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    If they'd done things differently from the beginning, they wouldn't have ended up in that situation.

    I do not believe in short-term solutions when the goal is meant to last. While creating peace, we must think ahead.
     
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  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Um, no. If the Empire had not been comprised of power-hungry totalitarian genocidal ****s, they would not be in that situation.
     
  10. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    That seems rather black and white to me.
    I don't deal in absolutes.
     
  11. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Not to mention the Empire isn't the sole party at fault.
     
  12. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    What other party is at fault?


    What lies? Could you be specific?
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    And I don't do nuance or blame deflection off the oppressor onto the oppressed.
     
  14. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    You don't have to.
    In my mind, we're all responsible for our society, not just those "in charge".
     
  15. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    The war in the OT bis black and white, the clone wars in the PT is grey. Remember in AOTC, Padme wanted to negotiate with the separatists to free Obi-Wan and prevent a war. Problem was the
    separatists didn't want to negotiate, they wanted her, Anakin, and Obi-Wan dead, they wanted war. This is what caused the Republic to attack the CIS and start the Clone Wars. Granted in that war both sides were to blame with the Republic not seeking resolution with the separatists (though it was the Sith playing both sides). The CIS wanted free trade and willing to overthrow the Republic for it, while the Republic wanted to reign in the megacorporations who were getting out of hand and maintain control of the galaxy.

    Yes it it for being a power-hungry totalitarian oppressor. The Empire's ultmate plan, according to Biggs from the deleted ANH scene is to turn everyone into serfs and take over everything, "to slave away for the glory of the Empire". That is why in ANH they swept away the senate, taking over trade, building superweapons, and using said superweapons to rule though fear. There is no reasoning with a group like that.
     
  16. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 25, 2013
    If the Rebels really wanted peace, then could they not have used more.... subtle ways to influence the Empire?

    The Empire's idea of peace is taking out any faction who disagrees, and if that means destroying entire planets, or simply having a weapon that everyone knows is able to do so, then so be it

    So let's say the Rebels did all surrender. No more Galactic Civil War. No need to destroy any planets. What's so bad about the Empire anyway? They had peace until the Rebels came about. What was the point of their insurgency? The majority of the galaxy welcomed the formation of the Empire with thunderous applause, so this indicates that the Rebels are a minority

    As such, it seems to me that they're more the "evil" side of the war. In a sense, they are the ones responsible for Alderaan
     
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  17. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    I applaud your guts, Jon. VERY soldemn does anyone acknowledge the Rebels are at fault for the mess equally if not MORE than the Empire. *Salutes* =D=
     
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  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Seriously?

    By all means, all of us should submit to totalitarian regimes because of "peace." Dictators are awesome, democratic rule is overrated.

    Tarkin is responsible for Alderaan, he gave the order, the end, period, full stop.
     
  19. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    The approval for the formation of the Empire didn't necessarily reflect approval for its continued operation amongst the wider population. The opening crawl describes them as evil. Good enough for me.
     
  20. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Because people deserve to be free and able to live their lives without the oppression of a power within which they don't have influence. Are you seriously arguing for a authoritarian, or even a totalitarian, regime? :rolleyes:
     
  21. Octavian Dibar

    Octavian Dibar Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Slicer87 has been right on point with the past couple of posts. I need to say that up front.

    Lucas goes to extraordinary lengths in Star Wars, particularly in ANH, to make it clear that you can't reason nor negotiate in good faith with the Empire. Nearly every action the Empire takes in ANH is designed to erase any question about who the Empire is and what they're about. But maybe you're right, maybe Bail and Leia Organa should have attempted to negotiate first. I mean, Leia did plead with Grand Moff Tarkin not to blow up her planet. He's a reasonable guy who's willing to make peace. As you can see, he didn't cause any permanent damage:
    [​IMG]

    Maybe the Rebels should negotiate. I mean, the Imperials, in general, are decent enough fellows. Let's ask someone who's got experience with making deals with the Imperials. Lando, is the Empire trusthworthy? What do you think of the deal you made with the Empire?
    [​IMG]


    Honestly, I think we're getting trolled here. There is no moral ambiguity about the Empire at all in the OT. Lucas leaves little to the imagination, and it should be plainly obvious the Empire will do anything, murder anyone and break any deals they need to in order to establish domination across the galaxy. Admittedly, I had to take points away because the whole illogical "peace at any cost" argument didn't actually make me throw anything, but it still gets high marks.
     
  22. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    I highly doubt what you are saying is what my friend or I are supporting, AFS. I surely don't. Likewise I disagree. Tarkin is NOT the sole responsibility bearer for Alderaan. Sids, Leia, and the gunner all have share.
     
  23. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    We're not getting trolled. These are consistent and ongoing arguments.
     
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  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    The Empire is a totalitarian regime.

    Seagoat said that the Empire did fine maintaining peace until the Alliance came around.

    I put two and two together.

    And Tarkin gave the order for Alderaan, therefore he gets the blame. As I said, I don't do nuance or blame deflection.
     
  25. Mr. B

    Mr. B Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2015


    you are of course correct. however i believe with some fans it goes further. there is an internalization that occurs with these characters. i find it interesting how fans not only idolize these darker characters, but say that they relate to them. it's also interesting how personal these fans can take the opposite type of character. I've heard fans describe the Jedi, Superman, and Leonardo the ninja turtle as being "arrogant", "preachy", "sanctimonious", "self-righteous", almost as though these characters were persecuting or insulting them.