Saga The Prophecy of a Chosen One ... do you like it ? ( with a Poll )

Or he did and had made up his mind before filming TESB, which evidence seems to support.

Evidence of this alleged statement? Because all other interviews continued the story of Luke's father and Obi-wan fighting Vader atop a volcano. And the Brackett draft had Luke's father as a separate person. This is also true in the treatment that Lucas wrote, nor mentioned in the story conferences about the film's development. It isn't until the drafts that Lucas wrote that this happened and there is no mention that Annikin and Obi-wan fought Vader, just that Obi-wan fought Vader.

http://starwarz.com/starkiller/draft-variations-for-the-empire-strikes-back/

1. The criteria appears to be a boy strong enough in the Force, far more than any other Jedi and born under unusual circumstances. And that he would appear at a time when the Force is starting to become unbalanced.

2. Not a member of the Jedi Order, but at the very least, he would need to be able to use the Force to do battle with the Sith. And he would obviously have to be a good person.

The Jedi had no choice because there was no standing army to fight in the war and there were not enough Jedi to do so without an army. The Republic disbanded it's army a thousand years before. The Jedi felt that they had to use the Clone Army because of the time it would take to recruit and train enough soldiers to replace them. As to the Republic at large, enough people believed in Palpatine because they were scared and felt it was acceptable to trust a leader implicitly. Human history is filled with such decisions.

Not when they were made. They do as of 1999.

At the time the films were made, we didn't know much of the backstory. In the early drafts of ANH, there was a longstanding war between the Jedi and the Sith.

What details?

Anakin creating Threepio was an element created when working on the PT, because earlier story material had him as a 112 year old Protocol droid. As to how far back Watto goess, Lucas didn't specify how far back he had him in mind. Obviously not in the first and second drafts of ANH. It is possible that he might have been there with regards to Luke's family in the third and fourth drafts of ANH. Be it connected to Luke's father, or mother. At the very least, it would be no later than ROTJ.

The idea of a fight between Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader didn't materialize until the third draft, dated August 1975. The idea of an earlier fight didn't materialize until the fourth draft. The idea of Vader having injuries didn't materialize until he was well into making ANH. It wasn't until at least 1977 that Lucas started talking about that earlier fight and who was all involved and how it went down.

 

I apologize that my last post wasn't as clear as I felt it should have been, due to the (frustrating) time limits on editing posts.

Does the evidence actually support that Vader was not only Luke's father, but specifically the same person as Anakin-Annikin, or better yet, the result of Anakin being corrupted/seduced by the dark side?

I think the details from the early drafts of TESB tell a different story. Even in Lucas' first draft - the second draft - where "I am your father" first appears (though only in the hand written version), Yoda tells Luke that both Ben and his (Luke's) father trained under him on the bog planet....now unless Lucas at that point of writing was thinking that Ben/Obi-Wan ever having his own student was an out and out lie, or, as I believe, Vader at this point was still a separate character from Skywalker Sr. Of course, Lucas' subsequent drafts (re-writes) prior to those of Kasdan's, have Yoda telling Luke that he trained Ben only, and that Ben trained Luke's father. Of course this could mean that Lucas was by that time considering the character merger of Annikin/Anakin/Skywalker Sr. and Darth Vader (whoever Vader 'really' was), or it could merely be a transitional phase that was mentioned in a Marvel comic circa '79, that Obi-Wan/Ben had not one, but two students: Annikin AND Vader. But then Lucas dropped the 'who trained who' exposition from subsequent drafts and left it unstated - much like the final film of TESB does. In fact, the film merely affirms the SW 'status quo' where Vader - but not Skywalker Sr. - was Obi-Wan's apprentice. The original dialogue between the Emperor and Vader in TESB also implies that they were separate people (and gives no hint that any offspring of Skywalker were being 'hidden' from either of them or the Empire).

In short, in don't think that taken in isolation , TESB's "I am your father" translates to what ROTJ ended up revealing. TESB's "I am your father" could have gone in a number of different directions...

As I said, it was a rumor.

I wasn't referring to the volcano fight, only that there was a rumor that Lucas had supposedly spilled the beans concerning 'Father Vader' to a group of fans way before TESB came out. And didn't Mark Hamill say that he was told that both Ben and his father had fought Vader?

Be that as it may, I think this situation isn't quite analogous with what only one kenobi was talking about, concerning Lucas contradictions in re: who/what created Anakin.

Right...in the drafts. But not in the OT films themselves.

The idea of either of Luke's parents or grand-parents having been slaves doesn't come up during the 1981 story conferences for ROTJ.

"Didn't materialize until the fourth draft", yet the dialogue in the draft in question, the final shooting script, and the film itself hints at no such fight. As to a fight in the third draft, might you be thinking of the "Battle of Condawn", where Anakin was supposed to have died?

 

Why would either of these be a criteria?

You have argued that just any Sith won't unbalance the Force, it is Palpatine that is causing this.
So Palpatine must die, that's it.

Why must the person that is going to do this be strong in the Force?
Is there some requirement that he fight Palpatine in a fair fight? Why?
To kill Palpatine, a bomb or destroying the ship he happens to be on would achieve the same effect, a dead Palpatine. In RotS, if some clone trooper had fired at Griev ship and blown up the tower when Dooku fought Anakin. Then that would have balanced the Force as Palpatine would be dead.

Second, why must he be a good man? If some ambitious Moff decided to remove Vader and Palpatine to take over the Empire and managed to blow up a ship where they both were. Palpatine would be dead, Force balanced and the prophecy fulfilled.

How do you know this? Ep seven to nine have not been released/made yet.
What they say about the prophecy, if anything, is unknown.

I haven't read much in the way of spoilers but there seems to be Sith in Ep VII.
So anyone that starts with TPM and watches the rest. If Anakin was supposed to destroy the Sith and there are still Sith in Ep VII. Wouldn't that confirm that the prophecy was wrong?

Again you keep having to resort to Lucas quotes. You keep proving my point over and over again.
If this was clear then quoting Lucas would not be needed. You keep doing it all the time, thus proving this was NOT clear.
At no point in the films is it ever said that the Force was totally balanced at some point.
That the Jedi comment on their reduced powers, that doesn't prove that the Force was balanced prior to TPM. It could simply be that the unbalance is getting worse.

Also, Yoda said that only a Sith would know of their weakness. How? And how does Yoda know this?
If a powerful Sith can cause the Jedi to loose their powers, which this could suggest.
Then since Yoda knows what is happening and why, this also suggest that this has happened before. Like the last time the Sith were powerful. Back then the Jedi's abilities were reduced because the Sith were powerful. However this also suggest that the Force was unbalanced back then too.

We know the Sith didn't all die 1000 years ago. The Jedi were apparently able to use their powers again but the unbalance might not have gone away, it might only have been less strong.

Also, in TPM, the Jedi had no clue what the TF was doing to Naboo, nor did they predict it. They didn't sense the existence of the Sith and they hadn't done so for 1000 years. So the Jedi's abilities to sense things seem to have been less good even at the start of TPM.

The reason I find it redundant is that it can be removed with ease and the removal would have little to no impact.
The prophecy thing has apparently zero impact in Anakin, either as a character or his actions.
So removing the prophecy would impact the OT not at all. And the only impact it would have on the PT is that Anakin would be a normal boy and he would need a slightly different reason to be accepted as a Jedi. Say Qui-Gon is amazed by how strong he is in the Force and wants to train him, the council is hesitant because of his age and his attachments but they change their mind after the battle of Naboo, because Obi-Wan forces the issue. He will train Anakin no matter what.

In closing, had Lucas done something interesting with this, then I might have liked it. As it, it is redundant and adds nothing except questions that gets no answers.
If the ST decides to do something with it then my assessment might change.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

It is Palpatine and his legacy. Both Sith Lords need to be eradicated. When Yoda and Obi-wan confront the Sith, they do so when they are separated in an effort to prevent them from working together against the Jedi.

Really?





Palpatine managed to kill three Jedi Masters in less than a minute. Yoda and Mace can hang with him, but they cannot beat him. That leave the Chosen One.

Yoda and Anakin could fight him, but only Anakin is strong enough to not only keep up with him, but would eventually be able to destroy him.

And yet, it did not happen. Only the Chosen One can defeat the Sith.

Again, that Moff is not the Chosen One. Palpatine would foresee such treachery and remove them. There's a reason that he's as feared as he is. None would dare cross him and those who did so, died horrible deaths.

Those aren't Sith in the ST.

The films point out that the dark side is growing in each film, meaning that it was in balance before. All the Lucas quotes serve is to verify things.

It would suggest though, that the Sith know that they Jedi's powers are weakening as a result of the imbalance and have chosen to exploit it. Not that this has happened before, but that it is happening now and the Jedi are unable to prevent bad things from happening.

Or the balance was fine, because the Sith weren't doing the same things then as they are now. That it is a combination of different events in the present day that has pushed the Force out of balance.

That's because the balance is starting to slip. As to not knowing about the Sith, that is due to their keeping themselves in secret. It is also possible that whoever foresaw the coming of Anakin, did so after the events of the last war, but the other Jedi did not because in their arrogance they had believed it impossible that there were survivors and thus they dismissed it.

 

I know Lucas has talked about how only Anakin had the power to defeat Palpatine, but to be honest, all he did was lift Palpatine up and throw him down a shaft. The one advantage Vader did have was that he was the only one who could get close enough to Palpatine to attack him unawares.....and even then, he needed Palpatine to be distracted (when he was attacking Luke.)

 

Luke couldnt have done it.

 

You sure about that? Luke's had a lot of training, and this wasn't even a Force power. All physical.

I'll bet Mace could have picked him up and thrown him out the window in ROTS.

 

Luke was no match for force lightning.

 

Neither was Vader. He died, remember?

 

That's the end result of all the choices Anakin made up to that point. Had he made different choices, he would have been ready and able to face Palpatine during the time period of the Clone Wars. Different choices being that he took his training seriously and never let himself be encumbered by emotional attachments. He would have been able to fight him head on and take him out. Instead, because he made poor choices leading to a final wise choice, he was able to withstand the lightning long enough to kill him.

Luke had less than a year's worth of actual training, which he interrupted to go to Cloud City. Lucas himself pointed out that Luke couldn't beat Palpatine.

"In coming back to see Yoda, we have to figure out Luke’s training and the fact that he never finished his training, and that obviously now he’s got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left alone on his own two feet without anybody there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place or something, but at some point you have to say well now all the props have been taken away, and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case, the scene establishes that the evil monster is actually his father, and he’s going to have to do it upon his own, and that he’s really not equipped to do it. That he was too impatient, he didn’t finish his studies, and now he’s going to be half trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

--George Lucas, DVD Commentary, Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, 2004

"Anakin is the Chosen One, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999.

If Luke had trained been fully trained, he might have been able to do it. But he wasn't. He was only trained enough to face his father and do what he did. But to go full bore against the Dark Lord himself, it would be just like what happened with the Jedi Posse.

 

I really don't know why you are still arguing this point. Whether he changed his mind once (simply during ROTS) or twice (once after TPM and then again during ROTS) he still changed his mind and the story - which was the whole point I was making. This goes against the notion you hold as true that Lucas is telling a story he always had in mind.

And...as I have already said; there is a difference between not spilling the beans and telling a huge porky.

Aahh...we're back to breaking the discussion down as if there are separate and distinct claims being argued. It matters because...(you do know how this works, right?)

I love the way you de-contextualise in order to give the appearance of logic in your answers. Your command of rhetoric is impressive (seriously, no sarcasm implied...I give credit where it is due)

See...the thing is, where TCW takes this it is as if those following their "faith" have given up faith in modern medicine (by which I mean, action in the real world, as it is actually now known to us).

You are conflating the importance of faith to the metal state of individuals dealing with trauma with an actual agency that actually will, above and beyond the real world we live in, actually step in and save people. I have watched a child of mine be very ill and...yes, one clings to a sort of faith that all will be well. However much I might wish my son well, however, my wishes did not save him. What saved him was the medical attention he got, his general physical health and his desire to get better. That faith is 'important' is a pat statement, and does not mean that faith is required (to re-inforce what I mean, whatever notion of 'faith' I had did not make my son better) - simply that the notion I held that he would and could get better was better for my mental health than an acceptance of his impending demise.

But that (that faith actually is what cures people) is what you are, in reality, claiming for faith here. That is what the story you claim Lucas is telling, particularly in TCW, is implying. How else can one explain Yoda refusing to pursue Sidious and stop him in order, instead, to save the 'Chosen One'...so that he can do the same...because it is 'prophecised' so? That is the same as turning the doctor away and bringing in the exorcist.

See...we've moved on a fair bit. We know that epilepsy isn't caused by demons. We know that earthquakes and volcanoes are not punishment for sins. We know about bacteria and viruses. We don't burn witches anymore. Strangelky, as we have learned of these things....life expectancy - at least in more affluent areas of the world - has risen.

So, your claim that faith is "important"...that depends upon what you mean by important (and the sleight of hand you have used to hide the distinction is what is impressive). If, by important, you mean it offers comfort then, yes. If, however, you mean by important that it actually alters the world then...I must disagree. Actions alters the world. The idea that, if you just believe hard enough (have faith in) then all will be worked out by some higher power is one that I find, frankly, ridiculous.

And....to the point I was originally making....if the Force didn't create Anakin, and he was created by the Sith, then why would the Jedi be right to have faith in the Force....which had nothing to do with bringing about this 'Chosen One'. If their faith in the Force is based upon their belief in this 'prophecy'...but that prophecy actually is a premonition of a Sith creation who will ultimately destroy the Sith - after helping to plunge the galaxy into the dark times that were also perceived within that vision, then surely that faith is misplaced? The Force didn't create him and therefore what their expectation was (that he would stop the galaxy being plunged into darkness) was in error...because they believed it was the Force what done it....

??? What do you mean the Clone Wars has nothing to do with it? You're the one who keeps bringing it up, and demanding that through it can we understand Lucas' intentions (all along )

Wow. Just...wow. I remember on another thread you argued and argued that the Jedi did have choices (that you couldn't quite define) but that the Jedi din't take those choices (whatever they were) because of some equally ill-defined sense in which the Jedi had 'lost their way'...


So...had the Jedi 'lost their...err "way"' and did have choices (undefined as they might be) or did they not have choices?

So...who in the OT mentions a prophecy? Who mentions a "Chosen One"? Who mentions having faith in this "Chosen One" as the saviour of the galaxy? That is, after all, what we are discussing. I have said it before,. we're talking about the symbolic and representational language of the 'religious' elements in the movies - which you consistently pretend isn't the case.

"Good luck" is also a salutation in our world. Does it follow that any who say this are secretly adherents of a religion of "Luck"? And...."Bless you" and the very idea of blessings....they come from the Old English word Blodest...which referred to being blooded with the (pre-Christian) sacrifice. Does that mean that all Christians are secretly following pagan rites of sacrifice? I'll refer you back to my previous answer and put some context on this; what on Coruscant does "The Force be with you" have to say about whether the Force is ancestor veneration (that actual context of my initial response here, lest you forget)?

Oh...come come. This is weak. Simply saying there is evidence is no match for actually supplying that evidence.

Let me ask again; who in the OT mentions a prophecy? Who mentions a "Chosen One"? Who mentions having faith in this "Chosen One" as the saviour of the galaxy?

I don't have to accept that Lucas created the two trilogies to tell one story....there are multiple aspects of that statement that I don't have to accept. I'll move on to that in a moment. But...the following...

Luke isn't going to stop them by using harsh language.[/quote]


is an aspect of this. But other quotes from Lucas that you have provided will demonstrate my point as well...

See...the argument you make, that; "Luke isn't going to stop them by using harsh language"



and then the notion that you have that; "If Luke had trained been fully trained, he might have been able to do it."

underlines how much the story has altered through the retro-projection of the PT. How it really does, fundamentally, miss the whole point of those scenes on the second Death Star

You see...this all boils down to a notion of having the power to stop the Sith...but that really misses the point - that Luke did stop the Emperor and Vader. And it wasn't about his skill with a lightsabre, nor about his 'power in the Force'

He stopped the Emperor and Vader by refusing to give in to hate. he saw the path his father took and understood that what it was to be a Jedi had nothing to do with wielding power or being a great fancy-pants lightsabre expert. He throws down his lightsabre and declares then that he is a Jedi.

And Lucas' comments on this seem to indicate that he hasn't got this...that he doesn't understand that revelation. For Lucas it is (it seems) all about who is most powerful.

Here's the thing....that really was making a new myth ; subverting the expectancy of mythical tropes. All that Lucas has done with the PT has reverted back to those old tropes. The OT created a new mmythology, and the PT re-hashes old, long used and tired ones.

 

I'm arguing because you don't understand the point being made. Anakin was created by unusual means. He has no father and is the result of Midichlorians creating a child within Shmi Skywalker, via use of the Force. That story remains consistent. The only narrative that changed was Anakin being told that he was created by Palpatine to it being left ambiguous that the Sith created him, or that the Force did. Everything else has not changed with regards to his origin, nor what he would do down the line.

Lucas didn't lie when he was talking about Anakin's origins, unless you want to count withholding information as a lie.

Which is fine and understandable. I've been there with my brother, my mother and step father, so I know where you are coming from.

The thing is that faith has all kinds of purpose. Medicine saved your son, just as it did my mother with her thyroid cancer. But medicine also did not save my brother and my step father. That is why that certain people of faith believe that regardless of how much modern medicine has advanced over the last one hundred years, people of faith will still claim or believe that it is up to a higher power that it works or that it doesn't work. I know that seems like a silly thing to believe in, but for people of faith, that is what they hold onto.

In the case of Yoda, the temptation that Palpatine put before him was to choose between his own self interests and the needs of everyone else. Yoda started his journey with the desire to find out who Darth Sidious was so that he could stop him. He had to choose between helping Anakin and helping himself. He chose to help Anakin because he was willing to give up everything, including his own life, if it meant that the boy could save the universe. That's why in that vision, he manages to lift Anakin to safety while being attacked by Palpatine. He is putting his faith in the boy and as a result, he is able to pass his trials and gain the knowledge of retaining his identity.

And again, the Jedi do not know what the Sith have done or have not done. All they know is that there is this boy who has a unique origin and that the Sith are back, and that the Force may not be in balance. They put a belief in him that he might be the Chosen One, even though they are not 100% certain if the prophecy is true. Now, if the Jedi knew that the boy was created by the Sith, then they would have even more lingering doubts about him. But they don't. And then the boy turns around and destroys that faith with his betrayal, which is why Yoda and Obi-wan don't talk about it in the OT. But then in the end, Anakin does the right thing in saving Luke and in doing so, fulfills his destiny.

Regardless of how he was created, Anakin still brings balance. It still feel to him to make the choices that he did. Because he had the ability to choose, this is why his future was clouded.

Well, two things here.

1. I forgot about that we were talking about the final episodes with regards to TCW.

2. I was referring also to "Clone Wars", the micro series. In that series, Anakin sees himself as Darth Vader and he still doesn't budge from it.

The Jedi did have a choice to use the army or not, but they felt that they didn't have one. That is what I meant.

We're talking about two different things. I'm talking about the idea of religion being part of the lore dates back to the making of ANH. The notion of the Chosen One is a reworking of the Son of Suns. Though it did not make it into the final version of ANH, a reworked version made it into the PT and connects to the OT.

Good luck is also used in the films. But my point is that the concept of the Force and the usage of it as a means of blessing begins with the notion that Lucas had of creating a religion. In this case, it started out as something that the Jedi would say to each other and then moved into the rallying cry of the Alliance.

No, the thing you miss is that there is two stories going on here. Story number one is that Luke doesn't become evil, but that doesn't stop the Sith since as we see in the film, Palpatine just blasts Luke with the intention of killing him. Anakin stops Palpatine because of Luke. In doing so, he is able to save his son and is able to at long last fulfill his destiny. Which is story number two. Lucas doesn't undermine what Luke did at all.

"It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it’s only in the last act—when he throws his sword down and says, “I’m not going to fight this”—that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It’s only that way that he is able to redeem his father."

--George Lucas, Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000

Lucas acknowledges that Luke has his own journey that he undertakes, but he also has a different story for Anakin. These two stories meet here in ROTJ, during the throne room sequence. And yes, you have to accept that Lucas is telling two stories in the form of one long story. You have to accept that the earlier stories of the PT don't simply stop at ROTS. This was evident before Lucas filmed one single frame. Just as Luke's story isn't going to stop in ROTJ, but will carry over into TFA and the following two films. Hell, Anakin's story is still going to carry over because we're seeing the fall out of all the decisions that he made, both for good and bad.


As to making myths...

MOYERS: You're creating a new myth?

LUCAS: I'm telling an old myth in a new way. Each society takes that myth and retells it in a different way, which relates to the particular environment they live in. The motif is the same. It's just that it gets localized. As it turns out, I'm localizing it for the planet. I guess I'm localizing it for the end of the millennium more than I am for any particular place.

--"Of Myth And Men", Time Magazine Interview, 1999.

 

Oh, believe me...I know the quotes. Part of the problem I have with what Lucas says is with his focus on "power". Luke absolutely could have struck down Palpatine on many occasions. The problem is, he couldn't have done so without falling to the Dark Side.

In the end, Luke "won" by not fighting at all. His training wasn't ultimately to defeat Vader/Palpatine with force or with The Force, but to make Anakin take responsibility and kill Palpatine himself. Vader was always in a position to take out Palpatine whenever he was near him, but Vader knew he would probably die in the process. It wasn't until he saw Luke's inner strength to die for his beliefs that Vader finally turned and took out Palpatine...but Vader didn't do it in any manner that Luke couldn't have, and certainly not with any "power" that Luke didn't have. It was the goal, rather than the technique, that made the difference. There was even a point in the story where Luke was to have killed Vader, pretended to turn to the Dark Side, and then have the Death Star fire on the Emperor's planet. If Vader's out of the story at that point, who, then, would be left to kill the Emperor?

That would be Luke.

"Another dark idea that Lawrence Kasdan had for the ending was to have Luke put on Vader's mask and say that he's now going to destroy the Rebel fleet and rule the universe. It was discussed that in his confrontation with the Emperor, Luke could pretend that he'd been turned to the Dark side. The Emperor would then take him to the controls and tell him to destroy the Rebel fleet; instead, Luke would aim at the Emperor's home planet of Had Abbadon and destroy it." - Annotated Screenplays

 

One; there are no Sith...and from that there is no ages old battle between Jedi and Sith
Two; there is, partly as a corollary of (One), no balancing of the Force that is required
Three; It is precisely that Luke does not become evil that stops Vader and the Emperor

Let me explain that last point. The battle against Vader is, actually, a battle against himself. That's what the cave scene on Dagobah references; the battle that is to come.

Those scenes are absolutely redolent with symbolism. The Emperor isn't real. The Emperor is simply what lies at the heart of Empire. He is a ghostly image which Vader communes with. When he enters the Death Star he is a shadow that walks among the crew alongside Vader. The Emperor is both the creator of Vader and a creation of his. The Emperor is not real. That is important.

When Luke refuses to be goaded by fear, hatred, by the voice of ego (The Emperor), when he realises that is what makes Vader...Vader then he has already won. He wins simply by not becoming as Vader. Vader's destroying the Emperor (actually his own darkness, his own black-heart) is his understanding of what Luke had shown him. It is a personal battle, and Vader is 'saved' by Luke's example. You see, even in his death he understands the true victory that has occurred - he has freed himself from his own hatred and fear.

The battle outside...Luke has 'faith' that his friends will succeed...but whether they do or not, their cause can in no way be helped by what he does on the Death Star. that is an aspect of his rejection of The Emperor's (his fear, his hatred, his ego) goading, his understanding that he is not all-powerful. Humility.

Those scenes, for me, are what make ROTJ worthwhile. Those scenes are such a subversion of the mythical trope that it truly was the making of a new myth..and at the heart of it a ridiculously simple idea; that to defeat evil you must ensure (only) that you avoid becoming the evil you fight.

Actually I don't have to accept that Lucas is telling two stories. The more I look at it the more convinced I am that how the OT turned out had a lot less to do with what Lucas wanted than either he claims, and/or that a number of fans believe. I don't think he even gets what Kasdan and others actually managed to put on screen. To whit

Yes...exactly. Lucas is stuck with his Campbellian 'monomyth' and stuck with the idea of re-telling tired old tropes....where an awesome all-powerful being will be created by 'de gads' and save the galaxy. Here a conscious power greater than us all will, soothingly, put everything right just so long as we all have "faith"...and power is all that matters in that battle...a great battle between angels and demons.

In the OT things happen because you take responsibility for what you do. Where evil is a thing that you do, not a thing that you are. Where power is not the be all and end all. The OT references the first Jihad, the removal of the timber from thine own eye, staring unflinching into the shadow of your own heart. The PT just flips though all that rather more important stuff just to get to the juicy bits...you know revelations and all that.

The one thing we agree on. The PT and the OT are two different stories.....for me they do not meet. Anywhere.

 

Precisely, which is why I think Lucas does the story a disservice when he claims that "only Anakin had the power to defeat Palpatine."

Although I hope you weren't being literal about Palpatine not existing.

 

Uh, Vader was a Sith Lord when the films were made. It doesn't matter if they were called Sith or not in those films. You need to get over the hangup.

Not in the final films, but it was part of Lucas's backstory. It wasn't fully formed until the PT.

The Emperor isn't real? You're going to use that as your defense? That the whole thing was just a metaphor and that Palpatine was a kooky old wizard. Or a figment of Luke's imagination. Look, I get that you took something away from the OT that you thought it was saying. I do. But not all of that is the story that Lucas was telling. Part of what you say is true. Palpatine is pure evil incarnate. But not the heart of the Empire in the way you view it. He was simply the devil made flesh who gained power through manipulation and fear, you know, the very things that Lucas wrote in his intro to the ANH novelization.

But what you also fail to understand, or at least accept, is that there is more than one story going on. Lucas was telling a larger myth within his smaller one. That there is Luke's journey, but there is also Anakin's journey. Anakin's own journey would be similar, but different from Luke's.

If you read the transcripts of the story meetings, you'd see that Kasdan and Lucas were on the same wavelength. And that Lucas was the one who had a lot of the ideas which Kasdan ran with, or didn't argue against. What you want to believe is that Lucas was just an idea man and that Kasdan was the one who made it into something that you've long believed it was because that is what you want to believe it was all about.

The thing is that both stories are told from different points of view, because the characters are different. Right in "The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith", it states that Lucas didn't just do another coming of age story with Anakin. That's why he approached Anakin's story differently from Luke's. Lucas doesn't take away from those themes in both trilogies. He just added another layer to them.

In the 1981 story meetings for ROTJ, Lucas said that Palpatine was far too powerful to be beaten by any mere Jedi. That not even Yoda could beat him in a fight if they had fought. He had already decided then that the victory over Palpatine was going to come down to someone who was capable of defeating him. In the rough draft, Palpatine believes that Luke is not the threat that was foreseen, but instead that it was Vader. In that same draft, Obi-wan and Luke are both overwhelmed by Palpatine's power before Vader's betrayal. Likewise, Yoda himself cannot hold off Palpatine's barrage of lightning. So it came down to Vader. By the time the story meetings had reached the ending that was used, it was decided on how it would happen and as we see in the film, Vader is the only one who can withstand the lightning long enough to eliminate Palpatine. When crafting the backstory in the PT, Lucas worked backwards from there and used what he himself said twenty years earlier. That is where he came up with the Chosen One plot and that only Anakin could do what was done.

 

Actually, Vader is the /only/ person we ever see killed by lightning, and even then, it was only because his suit, which served to keep him alive, made him more susceptible to lightning. For all its visual awesomeness, Force lightning is a pretty weak power overall, and works best as a sucker punch. Sure, it's overwhelming in and of itself, but it still takes a looooooong time to kill someone with it. Even Dooku stated that Jedi skills are better demonstrated with lightsabers than with knowledge of the Force (which I also think was a terrible statement designed to focus attention on flashy lightsaber choreography.)

In fact, I find it suspicious that Ben and Yoda never even told Luke about the lightning. They pretty much sent Luke on as a guinea pig, never telling him that Force lightning could be blocked with a lightsaber. Storywise, Luke and the audience aren't told about lightning to save the surprise, but the PT eliminates surprises (i.e. Vader being Luke's father), so this makes for glaring omission in Luke's training unless Yoda's intent is to send Luke to fail.

But to be clear, Vader does not kill Palpatine in a manner that Luke couldn't have. Vader does not kill with a lightsaber or the Force, but with conviction and righteousness.... That's what the films are about.

[Note: in the novelization, Luke is able to withstand Palpatine's lightning for a bit. "That which can be Force-generated can be Forced-repelled."]


And Palpatine is a metaphor. He's the devil on Anakin's left shoulder, whereas as Luke is the angel on Anakin's other shoulder. Anakin finally learns to stop listening the devil and follow the angel, even when doing so will certainly lead to his demise.

 

Mace was killed by the lightning before he hit the ground. It took a long time on Luke, because Palpatine was torturing him. In fact, the script and novelization both state that the intensity increased. As to Dooku, he had no idea that the lightning could be blocked and repelled without a Lightsaber. His statement is logical given that they were both even in terms of power. Dooku thought that he could out power Yoda and found out that he couldn't.

They didn't know what Luke was going to do when he faced Palpatine. When he throws down his Lightsaber and stops fighting, he is essentially throwing away his only defense against Palpatine. They sent Luke out with the intention of facing Vader so that he could pass his trial.

I'm not denying that. But that moment is the result of all the choices that he made. Different choices would yield different results. Different choices in his training would lead to a different confrontation between Anakin and Palpatine in ROTS and not what it was.

But he still wasn't powerful enough to do so in the manner that Yoda did.



Vader survived long enough not because of the suit, since his body crapped out. But because he had grown strong enough in the Force since Mustafar, that he could hold out against the power and not be knocked aside as had happened against Dooku.

I'm not saying that he isn't a metaphor for the devil.

 

Sorry but I can't understand that kind of thinking at all. The "evidence" is in the story itself.

NO ONE was able to kill Sidious (or Vader for that matter) for almost 25 years after ROTS. They must have something going for them especially Palpatine since NO ONE was able to suss out anything he was doing for some 60 years or stop him.

The only one who did in the end was Anakin. Hence the Chosen One and even for him it was a circuitous route that took decades for it to happen.

Exactly.

Exactly again.

There is no way around this other than to deny it.

Well you don't but that won't make it true.

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”

Philip K Dick.

I don't know what to say to that than he clearly does. It's evident in everything to do with the movies.They are his stories and characters. He wrote the scripts. He shaped the movies from scratch to finish. As much as one single person can control a massive engine that a movie is he did it.

That is exactly what does happen in all of Star Wars.

They constantly meet everywhere all over the place.

 

Where is this stated? It's been awhile since I've read Shatterpoint.

Is this in the novelization?

And regardless of Dooku's knowledge, Obi-wan certainly seemed to know. Interesting that a Jedi would know more about a "Dark Force" power than a Sith would.

You seem awful sure about what they did and didn't know. Remember, these are the guys who didn't even want Luke to know that Vader was his father. They've not been entirely honest with him, and Vader forced their hand. "Told you, did he? Unexpected this is, and unfortunate..."

No offense, but that's not much of an answer. And his choices were influenced by Luke's choices, just as they were influenced by Palpatine prior to all this. Anakin's actions don't exist in a vacuum.

Probably not (since Yoda didn't even tell him about Force lightning), but that doesn't mean he couldn't have thrown Palpatine over in the same manner as Vader. The only real difference was, Vader knew about the lightning, and was prepared for it. Nonetheless, despite his foreknowledge, his suit was his greatest weakness.

I said his suit hindered him, not helped him.

 

"Shatterpoint" was before the novelization. But I wasn't talking about that. I'm talking about within the film, we see Mace's skeleton like we did with Vader and we hear a final grunt before he is shoved out the window.

It's in the film.

YODA: "Much to learn, you still have."

You can even see the surprise on his face. Not to mention that he wouldn't have blasted him if he had known.

Obi-wan knew that he could block with a Lightsaber. But not without it. Hence we never see him do that.

LUKE: "Unfortunate that I know the truth?"

YODA: "No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face him. That incomplete was your training. Not ready for the burden, were you."

They were going to tell Luke when he was ready to know, but he fouled that up by leaving.

Anakin's actions that he takes are the result of everything that he did. All the bad choices and all the good ones. But making different choices, such as taking his training seriously and not using his emotions, would result in a different Anakin. Just as different choices would result in a different Luke. It's like in "Back To The Future", George made choices based on who he was as a person. Then Marty comes along and helps him to make different choices, which results in a different George.

Doesn't matter if it was a weakness or not. The suit is irrelevant. What matters is that he does what he does. Luke could have done it, but he didn't because he didn't finish his training. Nor was he foreseen doing it.

 

We also see Luke's skeleton, and he survived. This is not definitive.

That's one possibility. The other possibility was that he wasn't expected Yoda, a Jedi, to be able to block, much less manipulate, Force lightning.

My point wasn't about whether or not Obi-wan could block it with his hands. It's the fact that Obi-wan was able to block it with his lightsaber without blinking an eye. It's a rather peculiar, if not very isolated, skill to have.

They still never told him about the Force lighting even when he was ready.

I guess he didn't need to know about the lighting?

Again, this is all true, but it doesn't really address my statement.

Yes, Luke could have done it. And by ROTJ, he had finished his training. Whether or not he was foreseen doing it doesn't say anything in regards to his ability to do it, but since you acknowledge the possibility, then my point is made.

 

We do? I don't remember any "skull and other bones flash under the skin" effect quite like we got from Vader or Mace.

 

There appear to be brief flashes. But looking at the video (on Youtube), Palpatine's lightning isn't even aimed at Vader, so again, it appears his suit is making the effect of the lightning worse than what it normally would have been. It even continues to flash around his suit well after he's thrown Palpatine down. His dependency on the suit was his Achille's heel. No suit, no Vader,

 

Not to the same degree that we did with Vader and Mace.





Both took the full brunt of the lightning. Luke was being slowly tortured to death. Note that with Luke, Palpatine stops and starts. Mace and Vader took it full on without stopping and both times, it was shown to be more powerful. Luke, was almost at the point of death when Vader saved him.

That's what I said.

That's because the Jedi treat it as they do with blasters. That's why Obi-wan and Mace were able to block it as they did in the films.

That's because he was taken to Palpatine without their knowledge that he would go confront him. Once he opted to surrender himself to Vader, they could no longer interfere. It is entirely possible that they could tell him after his confrontation with Vader.

No, he wasn't finished with his training. He knew what he would need to face Vader, but he was far from finished. Lucas himself even said that he didn't finish his training and that he was going to face the Sith without being fully trained. But as it is, Luke could not beat Palpatine. He had the potential, but it was never his destiny to do so. And his choice to end his training only further cemented that.