Saga The Prophecy of a Chosen One ... do you like it ? ( with a Poll )

He is the main character. He is special.

 

Luckily, the OT works with or without it.

 

Even though I normally find it to be a tired and worn cliché (I’m looking at you, J.K. Rowling and Wachowskis!), I actually quite like the way George Lucas handled it, although I’m not sure I interpret it the way Lucas intended. I like the idea of this kid who’s told from a very young age that he’s the messiah destined to save the world, only for it all to go to his head. Instead, he turns into an egotistical, whiny, entitled prick (“It’s all Obi-Wan’s fault! He’s jealous! HE’S HOLDING ME BACK!”), and eventually becomes a psychopathic mass murderer (Darth Vader). Guess that big dumb prophecy didn’t work out too well, huh?

It’s a nice, clever subversion, so I actually really dig it.

 

Considering that it did work out, I'd say nothing was lost.

 

The genocide of the Jedi and 20+ years of a fascist dictatorship would disagree with that assessment.

Frankly, the whole prophecy angle really only works when viewed as a complete and utter subversion of the trope. The prophecy backfires in the most horrible way imaginable. Instead of being the messiah, Anakin becomes a psychopathic mass murderer. Instead of a self-fulfilling prophecy, we have a prophecy that turns out to be absolutely, decisively untrue, precisely because the Jedi place all their bets on it. Ironically, you could argue that none of the bad **** would’ve happened if the Jedi had just disregarded, ignored and forgotten all about the big dumb prophecy.

 

That was the result of poor choices made by Anakin. In the end, he destroys the Sith and struck a mighty blow against the Empire.

Anakin wasn't supposed to be a messiah. He was just a man who had a destiny that he chose to run away from, because of his fear of death and his greed. Then his son helped him to find his way again. If they had ignored Anakin, then the Sith would win and no Jedi would be left alive.

 

Errrmmm yeah...Anakin, the Chosen One...

I think "The Chosen One"..."The One who will bring balance to the Force"...miraculously conceived, with a midiclorian level 'off the scale' sounds pretty damn messianic, to be honest.

 

He was chosen to do one thing, but made a lot of other choices along the way.

No, it sounds more like a mythological hero than god.

 

Choices which resulted in the genocide of the Jedi and 20+ years of a fascist dictatorship. Yep, that prophecy really worked out well. But don’t take my word for it. Let’s ask the movie itself:

No, it sounds more like a mythological hero than god.[/quote]
Then why give him a virgin birth, which Lucas KNEW would invoke Christ parallels? Roger Ebert dedicated an entire segment of his review of THE PHANTOM MENACE to pointing out how the whole Chosen One/virgin birth story is deliberately reminiscent of the Christ story.

 

Mind you, this was going to happen whether he sided with Palpatine or not. The only thing Anakin did was participate in it.

Lucas gave him a birth that was unusual, which was to be revealed to be an act of the Sith. To solidify how powerful the dark side was. That it could create life and stop death. It was the lure for which Palpatine needed to bring Anakin into the fold. He dropped the revelation, but kept everything else for it. Anakin is the Chosen One because of what he does, more than because of how he was born. The Jedi believe one thing, the Sith another. But in the end, he is the Chosen One because of what he will do when he makes the right choice. Roger Ebert was going by what was known in 1999. Had Lucas not made the changes, he would find a different story in ROTS.

 

Actually, the movie pretty clearly shows that if it weren’t for Anakin, Samuel L. Jackson would’be killed the Emperor right then and there, preventing this whole thing from ever happening. So yeah, he’s pretty directly responsible for this whole mess.

He’s destined to save the world, conceived by the closest thing STAR WARS has to God (Lucas himself has said that the Force was designed as a one-size-fits-all metaphor for religion), and he was conceived via virgin birth. Nope. No Christ parallels at all.

 

If there was no Anakin involved, events would go differently than they did.

"It was a virgin birth in an ecosystem of symbiotic relationships. It means that between the Force, which is sort of a life force, and reality, the connectors between these two things are what we call Midichlorians. They're kind of based on mitochondria, which are a completely different animal, that live inside every single cell and allow it to live, allow it to reproduce, allow life to exist. They also, in their own way, communicate with the Force itself. The more you have, the more your cells are able to speak intuitively to the Force itself and use the powers of the Force. Ultimately, I would say the Force itself created Anakin. I don't want to get into specific terms of labeling things to make it one religion or another, but basically that's one of the foundations of the hero's journey."

--George Lucas, February 2005 issue of Vanity Fair, page 117.

And was possibly created by a Sith Lord.

"There is a hint in the movie that there was a Sith Lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the Midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the Midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the Midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine, 2005.

The equivalent would be that Damien Thorn is the son of Satan, but rather than choosing to rule the world, he chooses the path of God and renounces Satan.

 

Yup...I think that's pretty much what was said...

So...Lucas doesn't even know what the story is himself? but...hang on, no he does. He says "It's left up to the audience to decide" but has already said "Ultimately, I would say the Force itself created Anakin"

He also says (again contradicting himself) that "..but basically that's one of the foundations of the hero's journey" (his being created by the Force).but in the other interview says "How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies.."


Which is it, do you think? Does it make any sense to argue that the Jedi ought to have faith in the Force and therefore the prophecy if Anakin is created by the Sith...if he is the equivalent of Damian Thorn (and...unfortunately, he chose for twenty years to rule the world....kinda the problem)

 

No, what I mean was that Mace would never have found out that Palpatine was Sidious since there wouldn't have been a Jedi that Palpatine trusted like he did Anakin. The whole point was Anakin was sent to spy on Palpatine, since Palpatine trusted him and Anakin could find out his true intentions. Without said spy, Palpatine would have formulated a different plan and one that would result in the Jedi being killed, before they could come after him. Or one where Mace is also off Coruscant.

The Vanity Fair issue was published before ROTS came out. The Rolling Stone interview was afterwards. Lucas wasn't going to reveal that the Sith might have created Anakin before the film came out. Again, that's like Lucas saying that Leia is Luke's sister in Time Magazine three months before ROTJ came out. Also, what Lucas himself feels and what the audience is left to feel are two different things.

One of the foundations of the hero's journey is that he is created from a unique situation to do something grand. The Sith influencing the Midichlorians is still unique compared to the Force acting on its own.

The Jedi don't know that he is created by the Sith. If they did, they would not have faith in him as much. But would still try to train him so that he would be a Jedi at least. The Jedi have faith in Anakin and in the Force, because of their religious beliefs. The Jedi start losing their faith in Anakin, but Obi-wan holds on for as long as possible. Then we have Luke who has faith in his father, when it seems the alternative is to not put faith in him. And my point about Damien is that just because he was the son of Satan, doesn't mean that he had to be evil. He could have chosen to be a good man, but was influenced into following the path of evil.

Anakin chose to be evil because he was following what he felt was his destiny, which was to bring peace and order to the galaxy. But was influenced to go about it the wrong way.

 

Uh, no. I take it you haven't seen Return of the Jedi yet? Be warned: it has a teddy bear picnic.

"absolutely, decisively"

You could argue that, but you'd be entirely wrong. It's one of those things that only sounds good if you don't bother to think about it. Palpatine's plans for his rise to power don't depend on the Jedi attitude toward the prophecy. Order 66 doesn't care what the Jedi think.

The movie also pretty clearly shows that Samuel L. Jackson was only there in the first place because Palpatine deliberately outed himself to Anakin. In a scenario where Anakin isn't even around, Order 66 still happens.

Well, that settles it. I didn't realize the great Ebert had spoken.

 

Unless the point of the prophecy was that, in order to balance the Force, both the Jedi AND the Sith needed to be wiped out, with Luke starting the whole thing anew, the fact is that the prophecy still bit the Jedi in the ass, and didn’t do what they expected it to do.

But the Emperor made Anakin such an integral part of his plans, as soon as he met him.

“And you, young Skywalker. We will watch your career with great interest.”

“I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.”

“Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!”

If the Emperor’s plans don’t depend on Anakin, why spend more than a decade trying to get him to join you? Whether he cares about the prophecy itself is irrelevant. He DOES care about Anakin, and the way the Jedi treat the prophecy puts Anakin right where the Emperor wants him.

Besides, maybe the Jedi would’ve thwarted him if they’d actually been vigilant and proactive rather than twiddling their thumbs waiting for a savior.

Both Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi managed to escape the clones. What makes you think Jackson doesn’t in a similar scenario? Do you really think the Emperor wins if Yoda and Jackson team up on him? The fact is that he used Anakin to lure Jackson into a trap, and played the situation beautifully. No Anakin means Jackson doesn’t get lured into the trap.

Here’s the full video.

Roger also compared the Liam Neeson character to John the Baptist.

And considering that the video keeps cutting to an interview he did with Lucas, and Lucas never bothered to contradict him on this crucial point, I think it’s clear (especially given the virgin birth and the connotations Lucas knew that it’d raise) that he wants us to see Anakin as a Christlike figure.

Besides, I’m actually trying to give Lucas some credit for having some interesting, creative ideas. Played straight, the whole Prophecy thing is just idiotic, cheap, uninspired and lazy hackery. Played as a subversion, it’s actually quite brilliant and clever. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, therefore, I’m sticking with the idea that it is a subversion and that Lucas isn’t a lazy hack.

 

But it did. Anakin fulfills the prophecy at the Battle of Endor. His actions between Palpatine's office and to that moment were all the result of poor choices. Something that anyone can make. The Jedi were going to be destroyed whether Anakin was trained by the Jedi or not.

Palpatine wants Anakin because Maul got his ass handed to him and Dooku was a substitute to keep the plan going. Anakin was necessary only in that he wanted a powerful Apprentice. The plan was still fool proof if he had been left on Tatooine. If the Jedi had been vigilant, then Anakin wouldn't exist if the Force created him.

Mace would be killed in Order 66, because he wouldn't sense it coming. Yoda sensed it coming because of how powerful he was. Obi-wan didn't sense it coming and survived only because Boga took the brunt of the blast. If Mace had survived, he would have gone to Mustafar and killed their only hope of stopping Palpatine.

He didn't. That's why he said that it was only a virgin birth of symbiotic relationships. Meaning that Anakin is born through unusual means, but that doesn't make him a Christ like figure, especially since Christ didn't turn evil to save his life. He does talk about temptations.

MOYERS: When Darth Vader tempts Luke to come over to the Empire side, offering him all that the Empire has to offer, I am taken back to the story of Satan taking Christ to the mountain and offering him the kingdoms of the world, if only he will turn away from his mission. Was that conscious in your mind?

LUCAS: Yes. That story also has been retold. Buddha was tempted in the same way. It's all through mythology. The gods are constantly tempting. Everybody and everything. So the idea of temptation is one of the things we struggle against, and the temptation obviously is the temptation to go to the dark side.

--"Of Myth And Men", Time Magazine Interview, 1999.

But in his interviews, he never describes Anakin as Christ like. He was more interested in spiritual temptation, than making Anakin a Christ figure. But he used the mythological birth as a means of creating a scenario where the devil tempts Anakin.

"When you get down to where we are right now in the story, you basically get somebody who’s going to make a pact with the Devil, and it’s going to be a pact with the Devil that says, 'I want the power to save somebody from death. I want to be able to stop them from going to the river Styx, and I need to go to a god for that, but the gods won’t do it, so I’m going to go down to Hades and get the Dark Lord to allow me to have this power that will allow me to save the very person I want to hang on to.' You know, it’s Faust. So Anakin wants that power, and that is basically a bad thing. If you’re going to sell your soul to save somebody you love, that’s not a good thing. That’s as we say in the film, unnatural. You have to accept that natural course of life. Of all things. Death is obviously the biggest of them all. Not only death for yourself but death for the things you care about."

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005

Well, then, he's a hack, because the prophecy is not subverted. It is very much real, according to him. But it is defined by Anakin's choices.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The “phantom menace” refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader—also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct—Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999

MOYERS: I hear many young people today talk about a world that's empty of heroism, where there are no more noble things to do.

LUCAS: Heroes come in all sizes, and you don't have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It's just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people--these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives. You don't have to get into a giant laser-sword fight and blow up three spaceships to become a hero.

--"Of Myth And Men", Time Magazine Interview, 1999.

The only subversion would be that instead of killing Palpatine in ROTS, he turns to the dark side and becomes a Sith for twenty four years, until his son helps him to pull his head out of his ass and do the right thing, in ROTJ.

 

That one is always odd to me.

I must have missed the bit where Jesus turns evil and swear allegiance to Satan and destroy the church.

Someone much have ripped out that book from the bible.

 

So are you saying the Prophecy was that Anakin would “help the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights”, “join [the Sith]”, and “leave [the Force] in darkness” for 20 years, before his son convinced him to turn to the light? Well, then that’s one incredibly ****ed-up prophecy, and the Jedi must’ve really been pretty stupid to go along with it.

But why wait around for Anakin? Are sociopathic thugs with a high midi-chlorian count (like Darth Maul) that difficult to find?

The likeliest explanation is that the Emperor was aware of the whole stupid Chosen One Prophecy, and decided to take that Big Dumb Prophecy and use it as a weapon against the Jedi. He knew that he could seduce Anakin and use him as an inside agent, largely because he knew the Jedi would never suspect their precious Chosen One of turning against them.

How do you know that Jackson wouldn’t sense it coming? Supposedly, he’s second-only to Yoda. In fact, the Emperor specifically had Anakin lure Jackson into the trap before launching Order 666. Maybe he did that because he was afraid that Jackson would thwart Order 666 and needed him out of the way before he could go through with it.

Besides, maybe if the Jedi had actually bothered to take any action whatsoever (investigating why a Sith allied himself with/manipulated the green trade aliens in THE PHANTOM MENACE, investigating the origins of this mysterious clone army), they could’ve linked it back to the Emperor and stopped him before he was ready. Or, as others have suggested, if they knew a Sith Lord was working the Senate, have all the Senators, all of their aides and advisors, all of their senior campaign staff, etc. submit to a blood test and analyze the various midi-chlorian counts. Instead, they just sat on their asses waiting for their Chosen One to save them. Instead, the Chosen One “helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights”. Again, really worked out well for the Jedi, didn’t it?

Or maybe he just decided that he’d avoid publicly making what would undoubtedly be a hugely controversial statement. Just look at what happened to his friend, Martin Scorsese, 10 years earlier, when he decided to tackle something regarding the temptation of Christ.

Well, when you put it that way, the whole Prophecy thing sounds really stupid. When I saw RETURN OF THE JEDI, I thought it was a nice way of wrapping things up that, while not completely surprising, was still more original than it could’ve been. Having Vader kill the Emperor accomplished two things:

a) It allowed Luke to succeed in redeeming his father.

b) It allowed for an interesting twist; Vader, not Luke, defeats the main threat and saves the day. It’s sorta like how Gollum, not Frodo, ends up destroying the Ring, except that Vader makes a deliberate choice to let go of the dark side and destroy the Emperor, whereas Gollum refuses to let go of the Ring, which ends up causing both his own destruction and that of his “Precious”. Given the film’s title, and the fact that the first draft had this confrontation taking place in a volcano (with Vader eventually throwing both the Emperor and himself into the lava), Lucas likely took some conscious inspiration from THE LORD OF THE RINGS.

Making it into a Prophecy just ties everything together too neatly. It’d be like making Gollum into the Chosen One, and saying that he destroyed the Ring because “the Prophecy said so”. Or even Luke being the Other Chosen One, who destroys the Death Star and redeems his father because “the Prophecy said so”. This is why I hate prophecies. They tie everything up too neatly, they’re contrived, they’re predictable and they lack drama. Having a prophecy that backfires and fails is far more interesting. Even the self-fulfilling prophecy is overdone. The idea of a prophecy that just doesn’t come true at all is something I’ve never seen before. As much as I have problems with the HARRY POTTER prophecy, even that made it slightly more interesting:

At least there, the prophecy is essentially made meaningless by the fact that anyone can simply ignore it and pretend it doesn’t exist. It’ll only come true if the active parties choose to do so.

Not to mention that, at this point, Disney can essentially just undo the prophecy on a whim. What if the sequel trilogy introduces us to a new Sith Lord? That would mean the Sith wasn’t destroyed and the prophecy wasn’t fulfilled. What if it turns out that balance was never restored to the Force? Again, prophecy not fulfilled. The ending of RETURN OF THE JEDI is alot more compelling when viewed in terms of Anakin making a choice and reflecting on his past decisions, rather than him just fulfilling some big dumb prophecy.

And I’m still not sure what the hell “bringing balance to the Force” even means. It’s such a vague, nebulous statement that the films never really explain. (NOTE: I don’t care what the EU or whatever says. Films should not require an instruction manual.) If anything, Luke seems to be the most balanced Force user of them all. For one thing, he proves the whole Jedi edict about emotional attachments leading to the dark side to be a bunch of crap, since Luke’s attachment to his father, and Anakin’s attachment to his son ultimately save the day. Everyone else seems to believe that Vader is a lost cause and that Luke should just give up on his attachment to his dad:

LUKE: I can’t kill my own father.
OBI-WAN: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

VADER: Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don’t know the power of the dark side. I MUST obey my master.

VADER: It is too late for me, son.

EMPEROR: Ah, yes. A Jedi weapon. Much like your father’s. By now, you must know he can never be turned from the dark side.

Of course, Luke’s right, and all the old dudes (Yoda, Emperor, Vader, Obi-Wan) are all wrong. Maybe that’s what balance is. The films never really explain it.

That’s it for now. This could go on forever.

 

Not entirely true....

ANAKIN: Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden.
Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is
central to a Jedi's life, so you might say we're encouraged
to love.

Anakin is not allowed to get married.....but the Jedi show plenty of emotional attachments to friends.



And Luke's good emotions and feelings are encouraged:

"You must do what you feel is right, of course." - Luke's decision not to go with Ben on his damn-fooled idealistic crusade

"Stretch out with your feelings, Luke." - Luke's remote training on the Millenium Falcon

"Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit. But they could be made to serve the Emperor."

What Yoda warns Luke about are negative feelings...

Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength
flows from the Force. But beware
of the dark side. Anger... fear...
aggression. The dark side of
the Force are they.
Easily they flow, quick to join
you in a fight.

Luke
But how am I to know the good side
from the bad?

YODA
You will know. When you are calm,
at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
the Force for knowledge and
defense, never for attack.

But the idea did exist:

The second draft as well as the third draft began with the following quote: "And in time of greatest despair there shall come a savior and he shall be known as: THE SON OF THE SUN" ("Journal of the Whills," 3:12) - Annotated Screenplays

 

No. Balance of the Force, not balance of the Force-users.

Who cares? You said the prophecy was "untrue" - not only that, but absolutely, decisively untrue!

Yet - as far as we know - the prophecy says nothing about the fate of the Jedi! So whatever happens to Jedi asses doesn't seem to have any relevance to the issue of the "truth" of the prophecy.

What a mess. I think they expected the Chosen One to do something, as opposed to the prophecy doing something all by itself.

And, once again, the Chosen One did do what the prophecy said the Chosen One would do. The prophecy was fulfilled in ROTJ, which is a canon film.

"B-b-but it didn't say the Chosen One would turn Sith for 23 years!"

It also didn't say the Chosen One would even be a Jedi. It didn't say everything would be great for the Jedi. It didn't say everything would be sweetness and light with no bad vibes anywhere. Nothing that it said went unfulfilled. The claim that it was "untrue" has no basis whatsoever.

But he wasn't integral to Palpatine's plans to assume power and take down the Jedi, plans which predated their first meeting. Order 66, in its basic concept, does not rely on Anakin in any way. Anakin is really only crucial to Palpatine in a totally separate area, relating to Palpatine's stereotypical need, as a Sith Master, to seek a powerful apprentice. Even more so than usual, given that Palpatine is no ordinary Master and Anakin is no ordinary apprentice, and they apparently intend to work together to unlock the higher-order secrets of the dark side - but as we witnessed, this was not necessary to destroy the Jedi and take over the Republic.

Meaningless nonsense. What makes you think they hadn't been "vigilant" or "proactive"? They spent the time between the filns actively looking for Sidious, as ROTS dialogue indicates. What exactly were they supposed to have done differently?

Why should it matter? The bulk of the Jedi would still be killed. The survival of Yoda and Kenobi didn't bear fruit for around 20 years. Why should it necessarily make any real difference if Mace is added to the list of survivors?

In AOTC Kenobi is said to be as powerful as Windu, yet in ROTS Yoda and Kenobi do not consider teaming up on the Emperor. There are also the clone stormtroopers to consider, as well as the fact that Palpatine's Force abilities presumably allow him to control the parameters of any confrontation to a greater degree than that which may be readily obvious. Would Mace have survived the Temple attack?

 

Convenient that you omit the key part of that statement—"with Luke starting the whole thing anew", i.e., unless the point of the prophecy was that everything just needed to start all over again with a clean slate.

Do I really need to reference this again?

Clearly, things didn’t turn out as the Jedi thought they would…and as I said, if you’re right, “then that’s one incredibly ****ed-up prophecy”. If that’s an example of a prophecy gone right, then the lesson should be “Never again trust big dumb prophecies, because they’re full of horrific loopholes that allow space Nazis to impose a 20-year reign of terror on the entire galaxy.”

Of course, basic logic dictates that if the Jedi actually did believe that the Prophecy would entail their near-extinction, they would’ve never gone along with it, and they would’ve hauled Anakin’s ass back to Tatooine faster than he could say, “Now THIS is podracing!”

Then why did he wait until Anakin was on his side to set his plan into motion?

1. Investigate why a Sith allied himself with/manipulated the green trade aliens in THE PHANTOM MENACE. Seize all of the green trade aliens’ financial records, hologram records, transcripts, etc. and comb over them to find out who was really pulling the strings. If nothing else, just offer the green trade aliens a plea deal to reveal what the Sith were doing there.

2. Investigate who ordered the clone army. Send a Jedi over to that water planet and have him secretly investigate all of the financial records and whatnot regarding this army. I’m assuming the HARRY POTTER snakeface-villain aliens didn’t create the army for free as some kind of public service.

3. Order blood tests of all Senators, all their aides, all their senior campaign staff, etc. Whoever has a midi-chlorian count high enough to be a Sith is probably a Sith (hey, these films introduced the stupid midi-chlorian concept; therefore, I get to use it against them).

All of those are alot better than, “Hmm, there’s a Sith out there, and he’s actively clouding our ability to use the Force (only our mental powers, though, because we can still use the Force to throw rocks around and bounce off of walls like Sonic the Hedgehog). Since our mental Force powers are now useless, we’ll use our mental Force powers to get to the bottom of this.”

Also, if Force cloudiness is strongest when they’re in close physical proximity to the Emperor, then it doesn’t take much of a genius to see that the Emperor is likely the source of this cloudiness.

Yeah, it was pretty stupid of them not to team up on the Emperor. And the Senate battle makes it clear that the Emperor really can’t control Yoda’s physical Force abilities, as Yoda’s still bouncing off of walls and throwing huge rotating disks around (pretty stupid in itself, if you really think about it, but let’s take what the film gives us). The fight essentially ends in a stalemate, so Yoda probably would’ve been able to defeat the Emperor with the help of another Jedi. With the Emperor dead, who’s gonna take over? Blue sideburn tusk alien? Clone Trooper THX 1138? Tarkin?

 

Hmmmm. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with what the word subversion means?

?? What are you on about? Since when did Messiah mean 'god'? Cyrus the great is described in the Talmud as a messiah...he wasn't a 'god'...nor a mythical hero. Messiah, essentially, means saviour.

So...the prophecy refers to a saviour (will 'bring balance to the Force') is born of a miraculous birth and - in Lucas' own opinion is created by the Force...nah..nothing Christ-like about this